Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you didn’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the Executive Director, President and Co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna Kay Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me Campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling.

Kelly R-Scarry:
I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Disruptions do happen in adoptions. That is a common question I get asked by adoptive parents over and over and over again. Do they really happen? Do you see them a lot and my answer is yes, they absolutely happen. They do. Do they happen a lot? No.

Ron Reigns:
Fortunately.

Kelly R-Scarry:
If they did, people wouldn’t do adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Too much risk.

Kelly R-Scarry:
There’s too much risk. One thing that is really important to understand about adoptions is the definition of a disruption. Different agencies, different attorneys will have different definitions of when an adoption occurs. Does it occur after the match with the adoptive family? Does it occur at the hospital? When do you count it as a disruption? That’s why data on disruptions can be very misleading because it just depends on how it’s defined.

Kelly R-Scarry:
So when you’re looking at a disruption, for instance, in our agency, we consider a disruption anytime after a family has been matched with a birth mom and she changes her mind, whether it is a month after they’ve been matched, two months, at the hospital or before she signs consents. That is when we as an agency, because I feel-

Ron Reigns:
Any time in that timeframe is considered-

Kelly R-Scarry:
I feel that that is basically covers the whole gamut. We’re not singling it out and saying, “Well, a disruption isn’t until the baby’s born and the baby had to be removed because consents weren’t signed.” That is, I feel, a skewed version of it and we’ll give an agency much better statistics. That is really important to understand. Make sure whatever agency or attorney that you’re talking to, that you really understand what the rating is and how they’re defining it, what they’re considering a disruption.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Disruptions happen for all different reasons. It can be anywhere from family or friends stepping in saying, “Hey, we’ll help you with the baby. We will support you. We’ll support the baby.”

Ron Reigns:
“We’ll be there.”

Kelly R-Scarry:
“We’ll be there mentally, physically, financially-

Ron Reigns:
And we’ve talked about this before. If they’re not helping during the pregnancy, there’s a pretty good chance they’re not going to be helping after.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Correct. Other times, a birth mother may have emotional feeling she wasn’t expecting to feel, and she changes her mind. Sometimes this can be due to you have a huge hormone influx after the birth of a baby and that’s just nature’s way of helping you bond with your baby is this rush of hormones, this mother instinct. And when you’re doing an adoption, you’re fighting that instinct and it is a battle. It’s an internal battle. She may be positive for drug use and planned on Child Protective Services taking the baby and is choosing adoption as a way to not have her child placed in the system. And when the state Child Protective Service case worker comes out, she explains the process and the birth mother thinks that that is a plan she’d be able to work through and get reunited with her baby. Unfortunately, oftentimes that’s not the case.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, by and large.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Correct. Another reason may be the birth father shows up and promises her the world and this is what she’s wanted to hear the entire pregnancy. She wants the perfect family. She wants the birth father. She wants her new family united. And up until this very moment, that wasn’t the case. Another one could be her circumstances have changed and she’s able to parent. Maybe she had a relative that passed away and she received an inheritance and can now financially support her child. There are lots of reasons that a birth mother may change her mind.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Another one could be that she has scammed and successfully done so.

Ron Reigns:
And never intended on the adoption in the first place, but thought, “Okay, I can get living expenses and help from this agency while I’m pregnant.”

Kelly R-Scarry:
Correct and that’s unfortunate. That’s something that as an agency I can say that we really try to screen out-

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Women that are scamming. We-

Ron Reigns:
Not to get too far into the legal weeds but are there repercussions for somebody scamming the system and trying to-

Kelly R-Scarry:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Yes, there are. The question that I get from adoptive families when a disruption occurs is what happens? What happens? What happens to the baby? What happens to the mother? What happens? So, there’s lots of things that can happen. The baby can go into state custody. The birth mother can work on a plan to try to reunite with the baby. If the birth mother decides to keep the baby and she is able to, then she parents. The baby can go to a relative or family member that has stepped up that maybe had not stepped up in the past and she and the baby may go live with a family member.

Kelly R-Scarry:
When a birth mother genuinely has worked an adoption plan, plans on placing the baby for adoption, this can absolutely impact her life in a way that she didn’t see coming. When she has an adoption plan and she’s been focusing all of her thoughts and her energy and her future plans on placing this baby for adoption, she’s not going to be prepared. She doesn’t have baby items, car seats, formula, diapers. She’s not prepared for a life change and she’s also not going to have the agency or attorney helping her with living expenses. Her financial resources have just been cut off. Emotionally, her world just got turned upside down and she will probably experience very mixed emotions, happy that she is going to parent her child. The hormones have come into play. That’s what the focus is. They’re overtaking all of the other thoughts in her head of why she was going to originally place in the first place and the hormones are overtaking her emotions.

Kelly R-Scarry:
That being said, she may be spinning in her head. It may be something that she is wrestling with and she’s going back and forth in her head and really trying to process it. When those family members and friends that have not assisted her during her pregnancy show up, they promise the world. And as quickly as they come in, I have seen them exit back out. At that point, birth mothers will often reach back out to us and, they, from what I’ve seen, often don’t place at that time. I have heard stories where they do. Personally, in our agency, I haven’t seen that because they have bonded with the baby at that point. They don’t know what they would tell their family and friends as to what happened with the baby, so they feel shame and embarrassment if they were to have taken the baby home and then say, “Well I now I failed and so now I don’t feel like I can place a baby,” even though that wouldn’t be the case.

Ron Reigns:
But emotionally, it’s hard for them to go back.

Kelly R-Scarry:
It is very hard. It is very hard and the dreams and plans that she’s made are all gone and she’s now going to face a life of having a newborn. When women are struggling with homelessness and drug use and mental illness and they’re unemployed, they’re having relationship issues, bringing a newborn into that is going to complicate all of those issues even more so. There is the honeymoon high of having a baby and bringing the baby home, but when the baby’s not sleeping at night, and newborns don’t sleep at night, they’re very expensive, they are very draining. You have to make them immediately a priority over your own wants and needs. And when it switches on a dime, that can really throw somebody.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Again, a birth mother that’s struggling with all of these issues goes from having an adoption plan to having her world turned upside down and she is having to really look at what this is going to do and impact, how it’s going to impact her life. When a birth mother does change her mind and does not follow through and proceed with her adoption plan, oftentimes she is as devastated as the adoptive family, for some of the same and some different reasons.

Kelly R-Scarry:
She may have felt forced to parent. She may have succumbed to the pressure that was being put on her. She also may feel very guilty towards the adoptive family. She may have really wanted them to raise her child and feels a horrible sense of guilt. I’ve had birth mothers write letters to adoptive families. Oftentimes, they don’t want to be the ones to tell the adoptive family and the law doesn’t preclude that it has to be them that tells the adoptive family. She may very well be resentful towards the fact that now she’s being forced to parent and that is something that she may struggle with.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Another situation that is not often spoken about in the adoption world is the birth mothers that allow Child Protective Services to take the baby rather than proceed with their adoption. One of the reasons that a birth mother may choose Child Protective Services over adoption is because of guilt. If they allow Child Protective Services to take the baby, then they feel it was out of their control. Whereas if they choose adoption, they feel that they are then placing their child, they’re giving their child away. If somebody takes their child, then it’s not their fault.

Ron Reigns:
It’s not their fault and it becomes easier to explain it to friends and family-

Kelly R-Scarry:
But it’s really, it’s really a misconception on their part.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Because-

Kelly R-Scarry:
Child Protective Services would be removing the child from them because of the behavior, whether it’s drug use or a previous history of neglect, for some reason they have other children in the system. It’s not as if it was just circumstance, it was a reason to get there.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Certainly. They don’t just take babies Willy nilly.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Correct. And I think what we really need to explain to birth mothers is if Child Protective Services is in a position to take your child, you allowing them to take your child over placing the baby through the adoption plan and creating-

Ron Reigns:
And choosing a family.

Kelly R-Scarry:
And choosing a family, is doing the baby a service rather than putting the baby in the system. That is a big misconception and I have seen birth mothers choose to allow Child Protective Services to take the baby for that reason.

Ron Reigns:
It’s hard to believe.

Kelly R-Scarry:
It’s hard to believe and it’s devastating. It’s devastating on the adoption agencies part, it’s devastating, obviously, on the adoptive families part and in time it will be devastating on the birth mother’s part. Because when she realizes in reality that she’s not going to be able to work the plan, be reunited with her baby and now her baby is in state custody and in foster care and they have only closed adoptions, that now everything that she had originally planned on has changed.

Kelly R-Scarry:
Additionally, if a birth mother’s not working her adoption plan, then she’s no longer financially assisted by the agency and so her child goes into state care and she is where she was prior to coming to the agency, whether that’s homeless or couch surfing or back to living the life that she was living.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R-Scarry:
And it can happen abruptly.

Ron Reigns:
Building Arizona Families is a licensed full-service nonprofit, Arizona adoption agency.

Lacey:
My name is Lacey and I placed my daughter Jayda two months ago. I chose adoption because I didn’t feel it was fair to her to go the route where you terminate a pregnancy because it really had nothing to do with her. I was the responsible party and I needed to make a decision accordingly. So, because the father left when I was three months pregnant and I already have two daughters, I knew that was the only option really for her to have a better life. I knew that there was a lot of beautiful families out there who can’t have kids or for whatever reason, they don’t go through that process, so I felt that it was the best thing for her is to give her everything I could never give her. So that’s why I placed her.

Lacey:
I chose Building Arizona Families because I was kind of in a situation where I was going to be kicked out of my house and I was going to have nowhere to go, be five months pregnant and they got me in. They got me taken care of. They basically saved my life and they saved my baby’s life because I would have been homeless on the street. They were amazing. I got in here and they took care of me and were there with me through the whole journey, so it was a good choice. I didn’t think I was strong enough to do it and I did it and I’m in a really good place now.

Lacey:
Even though it’s only been two months. I’m in a very good place and I have a really good adoptive family who are beautiful to me and so it can turn out good for everyone involved. Building Arizona Families, they were just supportive through the whole process. My case manager, Blaine was beautiful. I love her and she was there no matter what I needed. Like I said, all my needs were taken care of. I’m really glad I chose this place and the people here are wonderful and they support you the whole way.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna Kay Evans Foundation and the You Before Me Campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com and you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast or adoption in general at (623) 695-4112, that’s (623) 695-4112. Join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. We’ll be talking about life after abortion for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.

Ron:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 3:
It was best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid. And that’s not fair.

Speaker 2:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency. The Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign.

Kelly:
I have a Bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development, and a Master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007.

Kelly:
I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly:
Adoption. The good, the bad, and the ugly. As the co-founder and agency director there’s little that I haven’t seen or heard. That being said, I think adoptive families will be surprised by some of, the answers that I am going to disclose.

Kelly:
In my opinion there should be no secrets. I believe in complete transparency when it comes to adoption. Secrets just breed concern, fear, and separation. When public figures adopt it brings light and awareness to adoption. And in most cases it’s a good contribution to adoption.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
But without releasing personal information it can sometimes breed assumptions, myths, and speculations. An example would be when Madonna adopted some kids from an African country.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
There was so much information that was not disclosed, and she has every right to not disclose that.

Ron:
It’s her right. Right.

Kelly:
That’s her life, it’s her child, it’s her adoption, and it’s her family. Sometimes I think that we take it too far with celebrities, and we feel owed that information.

Ron:
Sometimes. Right.

Kelly:
Yeah. Okay.

Ron:
It’s gotten pretty ridiculous.

Kelly:
Understatement of the year. Right?

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Yeah. As people are sticking cameras in people’s windows and the fact that she shared she was adopting, I think was enough.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Without having to go into explanations. For all the birth mothers that are listening now these are your stories. You’ve shared them with me, and I want to share them with our other listeners, so they can understand where you’re coming from.

Kelly:
Again, these are your stories, but it’s the only way I can have your voice be heard in this manner.

Ron:
I like it.

Kelly:
Let’s do it. So, here are some things that I have seen over the past 15 years. Prostitution is a way that babies are conceived, that are placed for adoption.

Ron:
Be still my breath, I didn’t expect that.

Kelly:
Yeah. Prostitution’s not uncommon at all. A lot of prostitutes do have pimps. Most of them and they are in favor of adoption for the most part. As long as they can maintain control.

Kelly:
So, I haven’t seen pimps interfere in most situations. In terms of preventing the adoption from going through.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
It means there will be a lot of birth fathers, but other than that …

Ron:
Potential birth fathers.

Kelly:
Right. Potential birth fathers. Thank you. Birth mothers often have other children, and yet still choose to not parent this unborn child. Every woman has her own story and her own reason for choosing adoption.

Kelly:
No one should ever judge a woman for making this choice. Going back to the Madonna scenario that we just talked about, Madonna didn’t need to, nor do I believe she did disclose her reasons for making an adoption choice as an adoptive parent.

Kelly:
For the same reason a birth mother doesn’t need to disclose to society why she’s choosing to place her baby for adoption. Everything does not need to be an open book.

Ron:
Everybody’s business.

Kelly:
Right. If you were to choose an abortion you don’t walk out of the abortion clinic and acknowledge and yell out to everybody why you chose to have an abortion. Should that be the unfortunate choice that you make.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Birth mothers may be married, and the birth father of the unborn child may not be her husband. I have seen that situation play out. An example of a situation that we had happen, was a woman was married, living with her husband and he had, had a vasectomy, and she was pregnant.

Kelly:
And the baby was not his, and she hid her pregnancy from her husband. When it came time to go to the hospital the father, the biological father of her baby was aware of what was going on and was in favor of her adoption choice, and very supportive.

Ron:
That’s a strong man. I had to admit. I don’t know if I could put myself in that same category.

Kelly:
Right. Sure. And in the hospital, she had told her husband that she was having some kidney issues, and so she was going to be in the hospital for a few days. And apparently, he didn’t believe her.

Kelly:
He decided to show up at the hospital after the baby had been born. At that time the adoptive mother, and the birth mother, and the baby were all in the room together. It was late at night.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
And the husband walked in and looked at his wife and said, “You had a baby?” And she said, “No I didn’t.” She said, “It’s her baby.” And pointed to the adoptive mother.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Well, the adoptive mother is now covering her head with the blanket and is calling me on her cellphone asking me what to do. Now, this is one of those, “Oh my goodness.” Situations.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Like, this is a one in a million situation.

Ron:
This isn’t a common occurrence. You don’t get this every five adoptions.

Kelly:
No. No, no. No, I’ve never seen this but one time in 15 years.

Ron:
Okay. Thank god.

Kelly:
Yeah. Looking back it was like, “Wow.” So, she’s underneath the covers asking me what to do and I’m trying to instruct her in staying calm, and the husband ups and leaves when the adoptive mother took the baby home.

Kelly:
And because the husband was the legal father, because they were married the biological father took a paternity test to prove that he was in fact the biological father.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
So, he was able to sign consents and that was how the adoption was able to go through. It was just one of those situations where you look at lives and you think, “How did you get into this situation?”

Ron:
Right. Not to judge them, but to go, “Wow.”

Kelly:
No. To go, “Wow, that was a doozy.”

Ron:
but for the grace of God go I.

Kelly:
Exactly.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
Exactly. Well said. So, that was definitely a situation that I will never forget. And I’m sure the adoptive mother will never forget it either.

Ron:
Or the legal father, or the biological father, or the adoptive parents, or anybody involved.

Kelly:
Right, right. Absolutely.

Ron:
The case manager. Everybody will remember that for a few days.

Kelly:
Absolutely. The family of the birth mother may not know about her adoption choice, and may not even know that she’s pregnant. We have lots of women that come to us that often hide their pregnancy.

Kelly:
They don’t want to answer questions, they don’t want to be judged or criticized. They want to be embraced. And I can’t tell you how much I love it when I have a birth mother that comes in and she has her grandmother, which I see a lot, or her own mother come in and sit next to her and support what she’s doing.

Ron:
It’s awesome.

Kelly:
That brings tears to my eyes.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
I had one this week that did that, and the grandmother sat there and asked questions, she was so supportive.

Ron:
And involved.

Kelly:
And involved.

Ron:
Wow.

Kelly:
Involved. Absolutely.

Ron:
That’s an amazingly strong family when you see that. I’m sure. You probably don’t see a whole lot of it, but when you do it’s got to …

Kelly:
I don’t see it very often, but when I do it’s incredible.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
And I like I said, it brings tears to my eyes, because it is such a strong sense of, in my mind, support. No matter what, I’m here.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
And that’s what I tell my children. No matter what, I’m here.

Ron:
Good choices, bad choices.

Kelly:
I’m here.

Ron:
Good boyfriends, bad boyfriend, whatever it is, your mom.

Kelly:
Right. Yeah.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Some birth mothers may have intentionally become pregnant and then decided that it wasn’t the right time to parent. So, not all babies that are placed for adoption are unplanned. Not all of them are surprises.

Kelly:
There are situations where a woman and a man may have had, wanted to have a baby, and then he wound up getting arrested and is going to prison, or they both lost their jobs and they’re now homeless, or they broke up and want nothing to do with each other, and don’t want to raise each other’s child, so there’s lots of different reasons.

Kelly:
We do have, as we have said In other podcasts, that birth mothers may have a very long list of potential birth fathers. This doesn’t negatively impact the adoption, it makes more work for our attorney, but other than that it’s just fine.

Kelly:
Sometimes a birth mother may plan on doing an abortion and then change her mind and make an adoption plan. Oftentimes I will have women come in and say they were going to abort the baby, but the baby was further along than they had thought.

Kelly:
They didn’t have enough money. I hear that one quite a bit. Or they just couldn’t bring themselves to do it. Birth mothers who do more than one adoption may or may not choose the same adoptive family.

Kelly:
Sometimes a woman will come in and she’s already placed with our agency one time, and she may not have had a good experience. Sometimes they may not have had a good relationship, or a good connection, or they feel that the adopted family didn’t follow through with the post adoptive communication as smoothly and seamlessly as they wanted them to.

Kelly:
They may want to bless another family, because they want their child to be the first child in the family. There’s lots of reasons.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
We as an agency love it when we can keep siblings together.

Ron:
Yeah. I kind of, think that’s where my heart is too.

Kelly:
That’s always my first choice. Yes. That’s my first choice.

Ron:
But, hey, everybody’s got to walk their own path and figure it out for themselves too.

Kelly:
Correct. And again, we empower the women and let them choose, but my preference is to keep siblings together, if we can do that.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
We had a question once where a woman was having twins and she asked, “Are you going to keep the babies together?” And I said, “Oh, absolutely. I would never in a million years split up twins. Never in a million years.”

Ron:
With twins. Certainly.

Kelly:
And she said, “Oh, good. I was concerned.” And I thought, “Yeah, that’s something that as an agency director I would never ever….”

Ron:
Recommend or even support.

Kelly:
No. I wouldn’t be a part of it.

Ron:
Okay. That’s where you draw the line then on that?

Kelly:
I do.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
I do. I do. Absolutely. Sometimes birth mothers will choose a closed adoption and then when the baby’s born they may change their mind and want an open adoption. I have seen a mother who goes into labor and delivery, and wanting an open adoption and then she disappears after the baby’s born, and doesn’t want to see the baby.

Kelly:
That doesn’t mean that she won’t come back in the future.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
That’s sometimes a big disappointment for some adoptive families. Some adoptive families really want an open adoption, and they really want to include the birth mother, and they want to have her be a part of their lives and their child’s life.

Kelly:
And sometimes birth mothers aren’t in a place where they’re ready to do that.

Ron:
And they’re just having a baby, it’s an emotional time as it is. It’s very hard. A lot of anxiety and a lot of different direction. So, I understand why they wouldn’t want to, and hopefully they do come back fairly soon and get to see the family and the adopted child.

Kelly:
Right. I have seen birth mothers come back. When we travel to other states and talk with adoptive families about adopting oftentimes adoptive families will ask about their birth mother, “Have you heard from her? Have you heard from her? Has she seen our pictures?” And sometimes we haven’t.

Ron:
Yeah. And it’s hard to give them the true response, but you do what you got to do.

Kelly:
Yeah. You do what you got to do. And again, it’s not that the birth mother’s not interested in them or interested in the baby, it’s, sometimes they’re in survival mode and you go back to the hierarchy of needs.

Kelly:
And they’re worried about where they’re going to sleep that night. They’re worried about where they’re going to shower. They’re worried about when they’re going to eat again.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
And to add in the component of, “Oh, here’s pictures and letters of the baby placed for adoption.” Is just too much.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
So, when you’re in survival mode their mind is in a different place. Other times that they may disappear is, after they’ve placed their baby for adoption, choosing a better life for their baby than they feel they can provide, is a real blow to their self-esteem.

Kelly:
And we’ve talked about self-esteem in another podcast.

Ron:
Absolutely.

Kelly:
This realization is absolutely heartbreaking. To be open and raw, and real, and present in every moment is painstaking. So, when birth mothers aren’t able to be present for extended periods of time after the baby’s born, and they come and go, or they go for long periods of time, or they disappear, it’s not that they regret their choice or that they resent the adoptive family, it could just be that it’s just too hard.

Kelly:
In the future they may come to a place in their life where they’re able to say, “I’m ready.”

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
And I’ve seen that happen. I have seen that happen. And we embrace that. And that is why, at the Donna K. Evans Foundation, if you have placed a baby privately for adoption you can come directly into the program or you can come back in a year, or two years, or three years. There’s not a deadline, because the deadline is only in your mind.

Kelly:
We’re there when we’re needed, and we’ll wait, because it’s the birth mother who’s made the choice of life.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
We can wait for her and give her that opportunity.

Ron:
With the Donna K. Evans Foundation what if they place through another agency, besides Building Arizona Families, are the services, and is this help available to them as well?

Kelly:
Good question. The answer is yes. Any birth mother who has placed privately for adoption can have equal and total access to the services offered by the Donna K. Evans Foundation.

Kelly:
This is not solely for our agency.

Ron:
Right. Okay. That’s awesome to hear.

Kelly:
It’s awesome to do. I was placed for adoption in 1973. My mother was 16 years old. She made the selfless decision to choose adoption for me. I was adopted by a wonderful adoptive family and because I was placed for adoption I was able to go to school, I was able to go to college, and I was able to get my Master’s degree.

Kelly:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the director and co-founder of Building Arizona Families, and the Donna K. Evans Foundation, which we nicknamed SWAP. Supporting women after placement.

Kelly:
After I co-founded the agency I actually looked for my mother, and I found her in 2007. My mother struggled with her adoption choice. In her struggle had she had help, assistance and counseling she might have had a much better experience, and she might have not struggled with depression, or anxiety, or guilt.

Kelly:
And so, we developed the Donna K. Evans Foundation. The Donna K. Evans Foundation is a non-profit 501C3 organization that helps women after they have placed a child for adoption.

Kelly:
We want to give women the services and the support that women like my mother did not receive. Our goal is to let women know that women matter. That they made the right choice when they chose adoption.

Kelly:
And what we’ve learned as we’ve done adoptions for over 14 years is, birth mothers need help and we want to be the ones to help them.

Kelly:
We know about the selfless choice that they made and we support them, and we support their choice. When a woman comes into our agency we are able to give them an emergency food box immediately.

Kelly:
A woman can come into our office and receive a food box even if she is not pregnant. Our food pantry is funded through private donations, both financially and through food donations.

Kelly:
We have a clothing closet right here at our facility. We have a maternity clothing for the women who are in our adoption program and are looking for clothing the minute they walk through our door.

Kelly:
And we have, in all sizes, these are all donated clothing. We have clothing that is appropriate for job interviews, that is appropriate for regaining their self-esteem. We do have GED materials onsite for women who are interested in obtaining their GED.

Kelly:
We also have computers that you can use for practice testing to help obtain your GED as well. We also have domestic violence services. We can help with restraining orders, we can also help with emergency housing through hotel vouchers.

Kelly:
We’re looking for monetary donations, so you can help support this fantastic program that’s going to help hundreds of women after they have placed a child for adoption. We want to give them a hand up, not a handout.

Kelly:
Donations could include anything from clothing, to non-perishable food, to GED study guides, to temporary bus passes. We need you to help us, help them. Be part of the solution. Make a difference in all of these women’s lives.

Kelly:
The adoption community is a large community and you’re part of it. You are part of the solution. We chose angel wings for our logo, because angels were important to my mother. Angel wings are symbolic of being able to fly.

Kelly:
The goal of the Donna K. Evans Foundation is to help women find their wings, so they can fly. Please contact us through the Donna K. Evans Foundation on our website at the dkefoundation.com.

Ron:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. Written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns.

Ron:
We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K, Evans Foundation, and the You Before Me Campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t know as our theme song.

Ron:
You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com and you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast, or adoption in general at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. Make sure to join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns, we’ll see you then.

Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you didn’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Lindsey:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R.-S.:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development, and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly R.-S.:
A little self-esteem can go a long way.

Ron Reigns:
That’s for sure.

Kelly R.-S.:
Self-esteem is the stairway out of the basement.

Ron Reigns:
Really?

Kelly R.-S.:
Really. Many of our birth moms find themselves in negative life cycles, and one reason for their adoption choice is to break the familial negative life cycle.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.-S.:
That is what I have said in previous podcasts my mom did when she placed me for adoption. There is a common thread among many women who wear the moniker of low self-esteem. They’ve been raised by parents with one or more of the following traits. These can all contribute to low self-esteem. Parents that are incarcerated, either one or both of them, they’re in foster care, their parents are perpetually unemployed, they’re drug using, they’ve been on welfare, food stamps, EBT, are considered lower class, we used to say back in the day in parentheticals, living on the wrong side of the tracks, the parents have little to no formal education, and it can go on and on.

Kelly R.-S.:
What I have seen is these lifestyles are what is modeled, and so when these children are raised underneath these circumstances, and it’s not that one of these is negative or, if you don’t have enough money, that doesn’t mean that you’re going to have low self-esteem. It’s when you combine these and you raise a child in these circumstances, and this is considered normal for the child. So every child looks up to their parents, and they want to strive to be like them, so if you have a parent living in a home that is not working, let’s say it’s the dad, the dad’s laying on the couch drinking a beer, not working, collecting his unemployment check, and he is physically abusing his wife, and she’s using drugs, and you watch this behavior growing up, then as you get older they say that you look for a partner that is similar to the traits of your parents. Again, that can normalize some of the behavior. That can also damage your self-esteem because when you get out in the real world and you see these things, you can start to internalize them. When you’re stuck in negative life cycles and you do have low self-esteem, it’s very hard to take steps to climb out of it.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, absolutely.

Kelly R.-S.:
Change is hard. It’s doable, but change is hard. Self-esteem and the lack thereof is really a huge contributor to decisions that people make. In other words, somebody that has very low self-esteem and sees an option, a job opening let’s say, and they would love to work that job. That’s the dream job. They qualify on paper for it, but if their self-esteem is so low, the chances of them actually applying for that job for fear of rejection, it’s probably not going to happen.

Ron Reigns:
So they’re sabotaging themselves by the choices they make.

Kelly R.-S.:
Right, because they don’t want to … they’re already in such a low place that they don’t want to try to reach out and possibly face rejection, which will then, again, in turn affect their self-esteem. It’s already low. They don’t want to bring themselves any lower.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly. Okay.

Kelly R.-S.:
When a birth mom comes into our adoption agency, one of the first things that we as an agency collectively try to do is work on their self-esteem because empowering a birth mother and trying to help her see what an amazing thing that she’s doing is not only going to help her for the rest of her life, but it will help her to see what a beautiful choice adoption is. If you have somebody with very low self-esteem, the chances of them feeling guilty about their adoption choice are higher because they’re going to look at it like, “Well, see, I can’t even raise my own baby,” whereas if you have higher self-esteem, you can look at it like, “I know I’m not in a place that I want to be to raise a baby, so I’m going to place my baby for adoption because it’s going to help the baby, and it’s going to give me an opportunity to be able to parent in the future another child.”

Kelly R.-S.:
When birth parents are stuck in these negative life cycles, they don’t often know how to find a way out of this labyrinth lifestyle, so when they get pregnant and they come to us, they may be living on the streets. They may be in a domestic violent relationship. When they’re in these situations, again, it flattens self-esteem. Nobody wants to be sitting, and I spoke with the birth mom last week about this, nobody wants to be sitting with their back up against the outside of a grocery store with nothing, with nowhere to go, with nobody to call, with nobody calling them to say, “Hey, how are you? What are you doing?” with no place to put their things but a grocery cart. That’s a really hard place to be. When we have them come into the agency and we’re able to help them with their living situation and stabilize them and help them raise their self-esteem, the goal is to have them leave better than when they came in.

Ron Reigns:
Definitely.

Kelly R.-S.:
And I think that that piece is often missed in some agencies because they don’t realize that the long-term effects, without counseling birth mothers and birth fathers and working with them and helping them with their self-esteem, is actually going to help them feel good about their decision. It’s going to help promote the adoption. They’re going to feel strong. Strong people do good things.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and so they’re going to start making more right decisions from that progression, you know? Just like the downward spiral is self-perpetuating-

Kelly R.-S.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
… so is the upward climb.

Kelly R.-S.:
Correct. Absolutely. And when you look at it, if you have a woman who is in a domestic violent relationship and she has low self-esteem, so she thinks very little of herself, when she’s being verbally abused and she’s being told that she’s nothing and that she’s lucky to have him-

Ron Reigns:
And she’s believing it.

Kelly R.-S.:
… she’s believing him. When he’s physically abusive with her, she may feel like she deserves it. I have had women come into the agency that they are with somebody that is very abusive to them, and what they tell me is, “One day a month, though, he’s amazing. He’s amazing. So I just hang on for that one day, because that one day is better than not having anything. It’s worth the 29 days that I have to go through to get to that one day, because I don’t have anybody else. He’s stuck with me for all these months when everybody else has walked away,” and they don’t see the value in themselves. They don’t see their worth.

Kelly R.-S.:
When we’re working with women, and I very much do believe that women can help women in a certain way, just like men can help men in a certain way, there’s a connection. And when a woman can help another woman and let her know that she matters, that she’s worth more than she’s giving herself credit for, it can change her life. And again, it helps the adoption process because when you have a woman that has no self-esteem and goes into a hospital, and she’s in a very dire life situation, she goes into the hospital and she has the baby, this baby is new and precious, and in her mind, that’s the best thing that she’s ever done. When she looks at placing that baby for adoption with her low self-esteem, that’s hard to do because then she is letting go of the one piece of her that means something.

Ron Reigns:
Right, that she’s taking pride in.

Kelly R.-S.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.-S.:
Whereas if you have higher self-esteem and you’re building it up, she can look at the baby and look at the adoptive family and look at herself in the mirror and say, “This is the right thing to do. This is what needs to happen, and yes, it’s going to be hard, but I’ve got an agency standing behind me that is going to help support me through this.”

Kelly R.-S.:
Self-esteem is the key. It’s the key to helping women leave domestic violent relationships. It is the key to employment. It is the key to higher education. It is the key to so many vital things that we need in society to better humanity as a whole, and it’s underrated. It’s not given the attention that it deserves.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, absolutely. So how do you develop somebody else … I mean, it’s hard enough just to try and develop your own self-esteem, especially if yours is low. How do you help to encourage somebody else to value themselves?

Kelly R.-S.:
One of the things that we do is we empower the women through choice. So when they come into the program, we talk to them about adoption options and explain each one of them. When you start giving somebody the power of choice, because they have little to none, they start to see that what they’re saying matters. When women have no self-esteem, they don’t think that anybody’s listening to them, and when you spend time and you focus on what they have done, what their hobbies are, when you show interest in somebody and they start to realize, “Somebody cares about me,” they start to feel like they matter, and everybody deserves to feel like they matter.

Kelly R.-S.:
We’ve talked about homeless people on the streets. When you drive by and you see somebody homeless on the street, that’s somebody’s mother, that’s somebody’s sister, that’s somebody’s friend, that somebody’s daughter, that’s somebody’s aunt, and it’s so hard to think, “Do they feel themselves that they matter?” And those are the women that we see a lot that come into the agency. They have been standing on a street corner, or like I said, in dire situations. But by giving them support, not just financial, but emotional support, and showing them, “Not only are you going to go to the doctor because we’re going to make sure that you and your baby are okay, but we’re going to go with you because we care. We care about you. This isn’t just about the baby. We care about you too.”

Kelly R.-S.:
When we talk to them about what they want in the adoption, what type of communication they want during the adoption process, what type of adoptive family, when they choose an adoptive family and they see profiles that these families have chosen to be presented to this birth mother, it’s a slow start. We have a one of our workers in our after-care program meet with them prior to delivery to find out what they want to do. Do they have a GED? And if they don’t, is that something they want to pursue? The thought of being able to do something, with somebody holding your hand who believes in you, is much easier than trying to do it alone. Climbing out of the basement with little to no help, never having done it, is daunting.

Ron Reigns:
It’s almost impossible.

Kelly R.-S.:
Sure. But step over step is how you can start to raise somebody’s self-esteem. Without emotional support, without somebody that believes in you, how are you to believe in yourself? When a woman comes in and says, “I need to place my baby for adoption. I’m not in a place that I can raise a child,” we commend her on her bravery. We commend her on her choice, and she starts to see what a good person she really is.

Kelly R.-S.:
When women are trapped in negative life cycles, like prostitution, domestic violence, homelessness, they’ve lost children to the state, they have felonies, they feel very beaten down. They’ve been told by either somebody in society or society as a whole that they are less than, that they don’t matter as much as the next person and-

Ron Reigns:
They’re marginalized.

Kelly R.-S.:
They are. They are. And their voice is a lot of times taken away. By, again, encouraging women that they don’t have to live underneath that moniker, that they don’t have to have this stigma over their head, there’s no scarlet A on their forehead, again, it’s a way to start empowering them towards building their self-esteem.

Kelly R.-S.:
I have had woman after woman that has come to the agency that is pregnant as a result of prostitution, and in speaking with them, I will often ask them to tell me about it, what it looks like, why they chose to do that, is this the lifestyle they want to live?

Ron Reigns:
What in their life … You know. I’m sure they were just regular kids in kindergarten like all of us, and then was it their example from their parents or friends or … Yeah.

Kelly R.-S.:
The answers that I get are often astounding. What I want to share with our listeners is the women that are in prostitution and have a “pimp” will tell me, “The reason I do it is because I can make a couple thousand dollars in a night,” and when my question is then, “So financial is not an issue for you? I mean, finances are fine.” And she said, “No, I give it all to the pimp.” And when I ask her why, she says … most of the time I hear, “I love him,” “He will beat me up if I don’t,” “He gives me my drugs and he takes care of me,” and she doesn’t see her own worth. She doesn’t see herself. When she looks in the mirror, she doesn’t see the value of her as a human being.

Kelly R.-S.:
In relation to adoption, again, a successful adoption can hinge on self-esteem because if you have somebody who doesn’t believe in themselves, it’s hard to believe that they will make the right choice. I think it’s very important for us to realize the value of self-esteem, of what we think of ourselves, because you can’t love somebody else if you can’t love yourself. It’s like the airplane analogy. When you’re on an airplane, they say make sure you put your mask on if there’s an emergency before you put your child’s on.

Ron Reigns:
Because if you can’t breathe and you pass out, how are you supposed to-

Kelly R.-S.:
Who’s going to help your child?

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.-S.:
It’s the same with self-esteem. If you have no self-esteem, then how can you help somebody else?

Ron Reigns:
You got to get yourself in that position first.

Kelly R.-S.:
Right. And as a society, we need to make sure that we are encouraging humanity as a whole to take the step and really work on our own self-esteem. Being hungry, being alone, being homeless, being addicted, and being pregnant, only to have your money taken away by your pimp if you’re a prostitute, is literally adding insult to injury. There’s no other explanation.

Kelly R.-S.:
It takes such a brave woman to walk into an adoption agency and say, “Hey, I really do need to place my baby for adoption. I can’t bring a baby into my world.” That is an inner strength that so many people can’t fathom. Women who believe in adoption and who believe in themselves will climb, claw, and fight their way up those basement stairs to make sure that their baby is not in a place that they are themselves in. Raising a woman’s self-esteem will help them believe in themselves. It will help them leave an abusive partner if that’s necessary. It will help them trust sobriety, giving them the desire to want to be clean, to not use drugs, because a lot of women use drugs to self-medicate.

Ron Reigns:
Definitely.

Kelly R.-S.:
It will give them the strength and the belief in going back to school and completing their education, and lastly, it will give them the wherewithal to listen to others without fear of being judged. Nobody wants to be judged.

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly R.-S.:
So adoption is definitely breaking the cycle and climbing out of the basement.

Ron Reigns:
And you can attest to that from your side of the adoption triad as well.

Kelly R.-S.:
I can.

Ron Reigns:
In that your birth mother wasn’t ready to raise a child. It was so beneficial for her to have made that choice for your entire life. You wouldn’t be the same person you are without that choice have been made, you know?

Kelly R.-S.:
Agreed.

Ron Reigns:
Does that make sense?

Kelly R.-S.:
It makes perfect sense. And not only have I thought about that probably hundreds of times, but I’ve looked at it almost like a Rubik’s cube from all angles, and I’ve thought, “Well, would I have had the inner strength to be the one to make it out?” And I’ve looked at the situation, and no, I don’t believe that I would have. I think that her choice saved mine.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Not to mention, I mean, I just love how your story really illustrates how one person’s choice several years ago-

Kelly R.-S.:
Thank you for that.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely … can affect so many different lives in so many different ways, because obviously chances aren’t good that you would have started an adoption agency.

Kelly R.-S.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Chances are even less that you would have started the Donna K. Evans Foundation and the You Before Me campaign. These things probably never would have happened, so all these birth mothers now that you’re affecting the lives of was because a choice made several years ago.

Kelly R.-S.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
So there you go.

Kelly R.-S.:
Yeah. Thank you for that.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, certainly.

Kelly R.-S.:
I agree.

Lindsey:
My name is Lindsey. When I found out I was pregnant, I was homeless, on drugs, and I was trying to escape a domestic violence situation with my baby’s father. I came to Building Arizona Families as kind of just to explore my options. From the moment I walked in, they were super supportive. They were great. They did an interview and kind of asked me what my plans were, what I was thinking. I let them know that I was interested in adoption, and from there I received a case manager, and I was really terrified. This was my first child. All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Lindsey:
I couldn’t even get off drugs at the time, and I just had all these horror stories of, “Would I go back to my ex-boyfriend?” Who he had a son my age, and he started doing meth with his son when his son was 13. I mean, I was totally alone. My family was not in the picture. They told me that I needed to get an abortion. So, my case manager became like my mom.

Lindsey:
I would call her crying in the middle of the night, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so scared about … I’m having this pain or this feeling,” and she’d walk me through the process of just kind of being there, because I’d never been pregnant before. Everything was brand new to me. She just loved me through everything.

Lindsey:
I mean, I went to all my doctor’s appointments because of Building Arizona Families, transportation, just everything, anything and everything to make sure that my son received the best care possible. I don’t know if I would’ve been able to do that for him had it not been for Building Arizona Families.

Lindsey:
It was definitely the hardest decision I’ve ever made, and it still is something that is very hard, but it was the right thing, and it’s still every day I’m so thankful for Building Arizona Families, I’m so thankful for the couple that adopted him, and I’m just so thankful for just this whole situation. I wouldn’t have been able to do it on my own, and I just, I know that he has a better life now and he has a chance to be great. I know that he would have that chance no matter what, but he’s growing up in a good family and he’s growing up surrounded by love. I couldn’t be happier with all this. The care I received from Building Arizona Families and the whole process was just a dream come true. I wasn’t alone.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and the You Before Me campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com, and you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast or adoption in general at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. Make sure to join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.

Ron Reigns:
Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid, and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R.:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development, and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly R.:
Abortion again is one of those hot topics that we talk about. The reason we developed the You Before Me campaign was to provide continued education to society about abortion and make sure that facts are known. One aspect that’s not often discussed is what life is like after an abortion for the woman who has one, or for the significant other who is with that person who has one. Meaning the birth mother.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and sometimes supportive, sometimes not as supportive, but either way, they feel the effects, as well.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely, and I think it’s important to understand what emotions a birth mother and birth father experience, how long they experience them, where do they go from here, does the pain, guilt, shame, regret go away? Is there any of those emotions, or is there just relief, and feeling like you dodged a bullet?

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
This is a hard one.

Ron Reigns:
I can attest.

Kelly R.:
And this is one that I am speaking solely from a professional standpoint, because I have not experienced this. As you’ve shared, you have experienced this.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And I hope that you will feel comfortable in chiming in, because again, I’m only on one side of this. Various research studies state that there may be categories of women who do regret their abortion choice. Women who are affected by the stigma of abortion, women who go on to change their beliefs on abortion, and women who never really wanted to abort, and felt pushed or pressured into it.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
I would believe that a birth father would feel the same way.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, in the same free categories like that.

Kelly R.:
Okay. Do you think from the woman who actually physically had the abortion to the birth father who in my mind was just as affected by it, not physically, but in every other area, do you think that those feelings are the same?

Ron Reigns:
That’s tough to say, because I’m kind of a firm believer that we’re all individuals, and we all take things differently. Who knows? Maybe there are people who, men and women, who can just move on after this choice with no regrets, and maybe don’t even feel any effects of it ever. But it’s hard to say that my walk is the same as anybody else’s. But from my experience, yes, I definitely have felt these effects. I don’t know if they’re even the same as the effects that my ex-wife feels, so I don’t know. That’s a hard question to answer.

Kelly R.:
How long after the abortion did you start to feel the effects?

Ron Reigns:
It certainly wasn’t immediate. I think maybe a couple of years, and then I really started looking back on it and thinking, “What have I done?”

Kelly R.:
Was it before or after the birth of your son?

Ron Reigns:
It’s been so long ago, I’m going to say honestly, it might have been when she was pregnant with my son.

Kelly R.:
That makes sense. That would be a huge trigger.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, and as I had said, she had gone through two abortions, so I guess at the time I just… I was so young and very naïve. Didn’t realize the consequences, not just emotionally on me, that’s beside the point, but on what I had… God, I can’t even do this here. Hold on.

Kelly R.:
Just take your time.

Ron Reigns:
The consequences on the life that was never allowed to be because of the choice I had made.

Kelly R.:
On the baby. You are so brave to talk about this, because I believe that what you’re saying is saving lives.

Ron Reigns:
I hope so. I hope somebody will hear this and go, “Wait, am I choosing the wrong thing here? Or how will this affect me when I’m 50?”

Kelly R.:
You don’t have the ability, unfortunately, to go back and change the past.

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly R.:
But you have the ability to talk to other birth fathers. Because men, in a lot of instances, would prefer to hear it from another man, and that’s what I’ve been told when I speak with birth fathers, and you have the platform and the opportunity to share, because they… There may be birth fathers out there, and they’re with their pregnant girlfriend, one-night stand, somebody, and they may think, “Well, abortion is a really quick fix to get out of this.”

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.:
It’s really something that we can just put behind us, and move on, and because you’re being courageous, and you’re able to share your story, I really do believe that if there’s a heaven, your baby’s looking down giving you the thumbs up.

Ron Reigns:
Well, thanks.

Kelly R.:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
That made it worse. Thank you.

Kelly R.:
Okay. Sorry. Not trying to make it worse. It’s what I believe in. I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

Ron Reigns:
No, I know. Not at all.

Kelly R.:
No. It’s I really do believe. I really do believe that we all have regrets, and we don’t always have an opportunity to-

Ron Reigns:
Help others to not-

Kelly R.:
Not even helping others, but sometimes you can’t fix a mistake that you’ve made.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly R.:
But there are things you can do to make it better.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. Yeah.

Kelly R.:
And that’s what this is, and I think that by making it better, and I wasn’t… An example would be I wasn’t able, during my mother’s life, to make her life better. I wasn’t able to change her view of adoption, or her feelings of condemnation, or shame, or regret, because of the care that she didn’t receive. After she died, I was able to do that. I was able to take a stand, and start a foundation, and use her life as an example of what shouldn’t be.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and how we can affect change in our lifetimes.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely, and that is parallel to exactly what you’re doing by sharing your story.

Ron Reigns:
Well, I don’t even know how to respond. Thank you, and I hope so.

Kelly R.:
I hope you can see the connection.

Ron Reigns:
I absolutely can. I just… I’m in a little bit of a vulnerable place at the moment, so it’s kind of… I’m a little overwhelmed. Sorry.

Kelly R.:
No, don’t be sorry. I think that this is exactly what needs to happen for people to understand the after effects, because people don’t talk about what can happen years and years later, or the triggers, or when you have an abortion, or your significant other has an abortion, and you didn’t at the time have the literature, or the understanding, and the studies weren’t out there as to what it really was, what it entailed, how it affected the baby, and you read it now, those things… I’m getting chills as I’m saying this. Those things can be beyond overwhelming. It’s not just like a dark cloud. It’s all encompassing, and I completely understand, because from a different standpoint, I had those same emotions with my birth mother.

Kelly R.:
I wasn’t able to fix it. Because I didn’t come into her life until 10 years before she passed away, I was not able in those 10 years to change her view on adoption. I wasn’t able to erase the guilt, or the same, or the condemnation she felt. I didn’t have that ability, and it wasn’t until after I lost her that I could. People say that all things happen for a reason. Maybe you had to experience that to be in a place that you can help save hundreds and hundreds of babies through your words, your thoughts, and your emotions.

Ron Reigns:
That would be nice. I hope so. I really do.

Kelly R.:
I promise you.

Ron Reigns:
I don’t want to have another man or woman facing this same kind of thing at such a young age, and thinking that that’s the only option, and then years later looking back and regretting. Or just going through this.

Kelly R.:
Right. And it takes, in my opinion, the bravest of the brave to be real, because men always want to act like nothing bothers them, like they’re fine, they’re indestructible, and that’s not the case, and I believe that when a woman is choosing, “Do I do an abortion? Do I do adoption?” In most circumstances, it’s not just her opinion. She consults with the birth father.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And if we don’t address with that birth fathers are thinking and feeling, and we don’t let them know, “Hey, this may really bother you. This may come back to where you’re not okay years later.”

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
That you’re going to suffer these regrets, and all these emotions that you may not be prepared for, and they may hit you at a time in your life when you’re least expecting it. It could be at the birth of your next child. It could be when you’re holding your grandchild. It could be seeing a pregnant woman in the store, or it could be walking in Walmart and walking past the baby section. It could be any of those things.

Ron Reigns:
They could be a trigger, an emotional… Yeah.

Kelly R.:
Right. Again, I appreciate that you’ve been so open and honest about it, because again, for the birth fathers out there, and yes, a birth father is somebody who has conceived a child with a woman. There’s an actual conception.

Ron Reigns:
Right, kind of half the equation.

Kelly R.:
The baby doesn’t have to be born for it to still be a baby, and I think that it’s important to acknowledge that they have feelings too. I mean, it’s not just up to the woman. It’s not just her choice.

Ron Reigns:
Well, and it’s interesting, because throughout my lifetime, that’s been the clarion call of the pro-choice side, is that it’s the woman’s choice. It’s the woman’s choice. And we get that drilled in so often that I think maybe to a small degree… I’m not trying to put blame on anything or anybody else than me for the choices I’ve made in my life, but perhaps that’s why I went along with it at the time and said, “Well, it’s her choice. I really don’t have a say in this, so I’m going to support her.”

Ron Reigns:
Because you hear it on TV, it’s only the woman has the right to choose, and it’s like there were two people involved in the conception, the procreation, whatever you want to call it of the child, and there are two people, three people who will be affected long term sometimes.

Kelly R.:
You said something really powerful. You said that you felt that it was her right to choose. How has that thought process changed? Because that’s really, really powerful.

Ron Reigns:
I have my own very strong beliefs on abortion from partially my past, things I’ve seen, and I honestly don’t think it’s anyone’s right to choose that, in a way. Whether government is involved or not, that’s… I’m not going to get into the political side of this, but I honestly think it’s… Even if it’s a right to choose, it’s a poor choice. I don’t know how to put that without… I don’t want to offend anybody who has done this in the past like I have, or any… I feel like it’s a life lost that didn’t need to be. Unnecessary.

Kelly R.:
Okay.

Ron Reigns:
And in a lot of cases, most, due to a feeling of expediency.

Kelly R.:
When did you, though, as a dad, decide that it was no longer solely the woman’s right to choose? Because I do agree with you. I do agree.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I think as I watched my son grow and realized that he didn’t have an older brother or sister with him. I don’t know. I can’t really pinpoint it, but that’s kind of… I just saw my son grow, and I’m so proud of him.

Kelly R.:
Yeah, he’s amazing. So, as a woman, I have not had an abortion. Again, I was born eight days before Roe v. Wade became legal. My mother was pregnant, became pregnant when she was 15, and I was told by her over and over again she didn’t know until the three weeks before I was born, as when she found out at the doctor. I’m sure she suspected. I don’t know how you couldn’t suspect.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I do believe there’s a very real possibility that I myself wouldn’t be here had that been an option, and I’m not sure if my birth father would have been consulted, or if he would have had a say in it. As a birth father, what do you think… What’s the best advice that you would give to a man and a woman, the woman’s wanting to do an abortion, and that’s what she is thinking is the best for their situation, what would you say to him?

Ron Reigns:
First of all, I would hope he would be more mature than I was at the time, honestly, but how do you do anything about that? But I would want him and the birth mother to look at the options, look at the choices they’re making, and see not only what they’re doing to the baby’s life, but also what are going to be the long-term effects on them as people? As a couple, or as individuals, however you want to look at it, but where are they going to be when they’re 50? Are they going to look back with regrets because they chose adoption, chose to raise the child, or chose to terminate it? Because I think if presented with the facts in a realistic way, I think that me and my first wife would have made a different choice.

Kelly R.:
Do you think that, and again, this is very personal, so thank you so much for sharing this.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.:
Do you think that that impacted your relationship?

Ron Reigns:
I think it did. I think we probably… I mean, I definitely wouldn’t say that that was the reason that we didn’t stay married. Who knows? Maybe deep down… I think we lost a little respect for each other, and maybe… For sure, even ourselves. So yeah. It affects our relationship. You realize how easily you terminated a life, and it doesn’t feel good. We all want to respect ourselves. We all want to look at ourselves as the good guy, or at least not the bad guy, and it’s hard to do that after you make a choice like this.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. I think that one of the purposes of these podcasts are educating men, and women, and society in general, that birth fathers are important. That they do matter. And the focus is very much placed on the woman’s right to choose, the woman’s right to choose, and I do agree that the birth father will carry as much emotionally, obviously not physically, but emotionally, mentally, the weight of the decision, as much as the birth mother. Because it takes two to make a baby, and that being said, the ramifications affect both.

Ron Reigns:
And I think, again, earlier I talked about how it’s been drilled into our heads that it’s the mother’s choice, it’s the mother’s choice, and I certainly don’t want to come across as saying, “No, it’s not the mother’s choice. It’s the father.” No. It’s two people who kind of made their bed.

Kelly R.:
It’s their choice.

Ron Reigns:
It’s their choice. Whether as a couple, or as individuals who had had a one-night stand, or whatever it is, I think just as the birth mother deserves the respect to make this choice, so does the birth father.

Kelly R.:
Right, and we don’t ever hear on the news, on society, it’s the father’s right to choose. We don’t ever hear those words.

Ron Reigns:
Right. As well we shouldn’t. We should be offended if they say, “No, it’s the father’s right to choose.” Just as I think we should be a little bit offended that it’s just the birth mother’s right to choose.

Kelly R.:
Right, and I do agree with that. You see it’s her uterus, and it’s her this, but it’s their baby.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and it’s their emotional well-being, possibly for the rest of their lives.

Kelly R.:
Sure. Sure. I really hope that if there are listeners out there that are facing an unexpected pregnancy, an unplanned pregnancy, or maybe have found themselves in a position where they cannot parent, I really hope that adoption is placed on the forefront, and really looked at, and that is what these podcasts are geared to do, is to really provide information that you may not find elsewhere.

Kelly R.:
Birth fathers matter. That needs to be on the forefront, I think, of a lot of people’s minds, because the attention given to birth fathers with regards to abortion is almost nil.

Ron Reigns:
What do you think of society putting it solely upon the birth mother? Do you think it would be better from a social worker standpoint to have two people to making a decision? Because maybe you make a little wiser decision with another person involved, and you can stand firmer with the choices you’ve made, as opposed to one person going, “I hope this is right.” I don’t know, I’m just curious.

Kelly R.:
100%, because in adoption, both people have to consent. A birth father has to be served, but he has 30 days to go to the court. In the state of Arizona, he has 30 days to go to court and file paperwork to contest the adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
So, it does take two people. With an abortion, you don’t have to have the consent of the birth father.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
So, in the state of Arizona, you do have to have parental consent if you’re under the age of 18 to obtain an abortion. However, you do not have to have the consent of the biological father of the baby.

Ron Reigns:
The biological father is completely cut out of the equation.

Kelly R.:
Correct, because again, the focus is on the woman’s right to choose. Whereas as a society, those that want to promote life absolutely believe in the unity in the decision, which is why adoption provides that.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And parenting, so choosing to parent, or choosing to place a baby for adoption, requires both parties.

Ron Reigns:
And it should.

Kelly R.:
And it should.

Ron Reigns:
In all three cases it should.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. One study that I read suggests that 33% of women who have had an abortion develop an intense longing to become pregnant again, to “make up” for the lost pregnancy. 18% of these women succeed within a year of their abortion. My biological mother had me. She didn’t have an abortion. They weren’t legal. But she did go on to have my brother almost immediately, so I… She was 16 and four months, four and a half months, years old when she had me. And then had my biological brother on her 18th birthday, so she did the same thing in essence.

Ron Reigns:
Just a year and a half later.

Kelly R.:
Well, she had him, so she got pregnant again within nine months of having me, so she would fall… Even though it was an adoption.

Ron Reigns:
And not an abortion.

Kelly R.:
She fell into that category as well. Was that the circumstance that you experienced after you had yours?

Ron Reigns:
Honestly, no it wasn’t. It was a few years later. It wasn’t like… Trying to think how old I was. It was about two years later, so it was fairly soon, but not… And at that point, we were ready to get married, or so we thought, and ready to raise a child. Yeah. It wasn’t immediate, but it wasn’t that long, either. Sorry. I’m very distracted today.

Kelly R.:
No, you’re doing fine. You’re fine. I also believe that women that do experience aftermath of having an abortion may not always attribute triggers or factors that may come into play later on to the fact that they had an abortion. And they may not think, “Oh, wow. That is a trigger because of this, or that is a trigger.” You’ve talked about your son not having a sibling.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And that being the case, do you think that before you really came to terms of your experience, that there may have been triggers with that?

Ron Reigns:
You know, I hadn’t really thought of it that way. There’s one incident in particular, and I rarely cry for movies. They’re movies, you know. And there was one movie, it was when… I had watched it when my son was very small. I don’t know if you’ve seen it. It’s called My Life. It’s got Michael Keaton in it, and Nicole Kidman, I believe. It’s been a long time since I saw it.

Kelly R.:
I believe I have seen it. I don’t remember it specifically, but I do believe I have seen it.

Ron Reigns:
All right, well, the premise of the movie is Michael Keaton finds out he’s got cancer, and his wife is pregnant, and then, so he’s making this video tape for his son to know who his father was when he’s born. At the very end, the little boy is watching the TV, and he touches the TV and says, “I love you daddy.” Or something that just set me off, and thankfully I was alone in the apartment at the time, and I’m watching this alone, bawling, just uncontrollably, sobbing. Like you say, the ugly cry. Because of this movie, and I always thought because I had developed this appreciation for how I feel towards my son, how much I loved my son as a little baby, and still do, but who knows? Maybe deep down it was a sense of the loss I had because of a choice I made.

Ron Reigns:
And I never really put that together, but that’s definitely a possibility.

Kelly R.:
I can see the connection. I can see how absolutely that would be a trigger, and-

Ron Reigns:
And I don’t think I’ve seen the movie… It wasn’t a great movie, but boy that was effective. It was a good movie.

Kelly R.:
Because in your mind, was that little boy the boy that’s not here?

Ron Reigns:
Possibly.

Kelly R.:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
Possibly, or for years, I just thought of it as me thinking about John, and how much I loved him, but who knows? Maybe it was how much I could have loved a brother or sister of John’s.

Kelly R.:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
That doesn’t even get a name.

Lacy:
My name is Lacy, and I placed my daughter, Jada, two months ago. I chose adoption because I didn’t feel it was fair to her to go the route where you terminate a pregnancy, because it really had nothing to do with her. I was the responsible party, and I needed to make a decision accordingly, so because the father left when I was three-months pregnant, and I already had two daughters, I knew that was the only option really for her to have a better life, and I knew that there was a lot of beautiful families out there who can’t have kids, or for whatever reason they don’t go through that process, so I felt that it was the best thing for her, is to give her everything I could never give her, so that’s why I placed her.

Lacy:
I chose Building Arizona Families because I was in a situation where I was going to be kicked out of my house, and I was going to have nowhere to go, be five-months pregnant, and they got me in, they got me taken care of. They basically saved my life and they saved my baby’s life, because I would have been homeless on the street. They were amazing. I got in here and they took care of me, and were there with me through the whole journey, so it was a good choice. I didn’t think I was strong enough to do it, and I did it, and I’m in a really good place now. Even though it’s only been two months, I’m in a very good place, and I have a really good adoptive family who are beautiful to me, and so it can turn out good for everyone involved.

Lacy:
Building Arizona Families was… They were just supportive through the whole process. My case manager, Blaine, was beautiful. I love her, and she was there no matter what I needed. Like I said, all my needs were taken care of. I’m really glad I chose this place, and the people here are wonderful, and they support you the whole way.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry, and edited by me, Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, The Donna K. Evans Foundation, and the You Before Me campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com, and you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast or adoption in general at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. Make sure to join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption.

Ron Reigns:
For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then. 

Ron Reigns:
The views and opinions expressed on today’s podcast are solely those of Kelly and myself. The information concerning the Paul Petersen case has been collected from various sources, and while we try to cross-reference these details, we understand that this story is still developing and that some of these facts may reveal themselves to be inaccurate as more is learned about the case.

Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 3:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 4:
I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 5:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 6:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R.:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the Executive Director, President and Co-Founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me Campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling.

Kelly R.:
I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a close adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:
Today on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, we’ll be discussing the Paul Petersen case, the Maricopa County Assessor, an adoption attorney who was arrested this past Tuesday, October 8th and indicted on 32 counts in Arizona including conspiracy, fraudulent schemes and practices, theft and forgery. He’s facing at least 62 federal and State charges including charges in Utah and Arkansas.

Kelly R.:
What I find really interesting about this case is this has gone on for what appears to be a few years, and this is now just coming to light. Where I’m really excited to talk to you, Ron about this is not only to dig into the material that has been released by different media sources, different areas such as court paperwork, other professionals opinions is really the present and future impact on adoptions where we as adoption professionals can support the adoption community and any potential backlash, or myths, or misunderstandings that may occur as a result of what Mr. Petersen is being alleged of.

Ron Reigns:
Right? Now, you take a very optimistic view. You don’t think that adoptions are going to decrease or at least not by and large and I’m of the same mind, and in a way,  I think this may shine a light on the adoption industry to where people go. Adoption, I forgot about adoption, so I’m so optimistic.

Ron Reigns:
I think that even though this is a horrible story, people may start looking into it a little bit more and going, “Obviously not everybody in the industry is corrupt, or doing fraudulent things, or bilking the state out of monies for a Medicaid and things like this, which seems to be going on with this Paul Petersen cat.” But I think this hopefully will bring more light to the industry.

Ron Reigns:
And if people come to places like our podcast, they can listen and go, “I’m learning more about actual adoptions that are on the up and up that are legit.”

Kelly R.:
100% agree.

Ron Reigns:
Good. All right.

Kelly R.:
Not only is this going to bring light to adoption that has been in darkness for so long and has not received the time, attention and respect it deserves, but it’s going to encourage globally us to understand the process of adoption and to understand the laws that are already in place.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
For instance, when Mr. Petersen was arrested and booked into the Maricopa County jail on October 8th, I found it interesting that prosecutors tell the judge at his initial court appearance that they consider him a flight risk and his cash bond is set at 500,000.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I find this very interesting because this is a man who I believe is an elected official, correct?

Ron Reigns:
He is. He’s the County assessor.

Kelly R.:
And being the County assessor, we’re now considering him a flight risk and setting his cash bond at half a million dollars. So that really puts it into perspective for me as a society, are we doing our due diligence and research as a whole when we are electing officials, when we are scrutinizing who we’re voting for and so forth? I find that interesting. That was one point that I looked at and I read and I thought, wow, okay, that’s really interesting.

Kelly R.:
So we go from putting somebody into this position and again, at this point he’s being charged. He hasn’t been found guilty to my knowledge, he hasn’t… nothing has confirmed these allegations.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Additionally, with understanding that, I think us going back through a timeline and gaining more of an understanding of the acts that he’s being accused of are going to help us reassure those families that are considering adoption, or in the middle of adoption, or have adopted that this is not reflective of the adoptive community.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly R.:
They say that one bad Apple in a barrel can ruin the rest of them.

Ron Reigns:
Spoils the whole bunch.

Kelly R.:
Spoils a whole bunch. Well, it doesn’t have to and it’s not going to.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Let’s start back at the beginning.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
What we know so far from the information that we’ve gathered is investigators in Arizona found 28 women from the Marshall Islands gave birth in Phoenix area hospitals between November 30th, 2015 and May 30th, 2019 according to the court documents. The women as they waited as long as six months to deliver their children lived in a Mesa home owned by Petersen.

Kelly R.:
Eight pregnant women were also found at the residence in Mesa. That’s the starting point. During this three year period, they were brought here from the Marshall Islands to have their babies to then have them adopted to families in the United States.

Ron Reigns:
Correct.

Kelly R.:
We have also learned from the department of public safety that Mr. Petersen had been involved in adoptions of Marshallese babies since at least 2005.

Ron Reigns:
At least. Right.

Kelly R.:
And you had stated prior to the podcast when you and I were discussing this, that he received his degree in 2003?

Ron Reigns:
2002, and while he was still in school at ASU pursuing his degree in mass communications from the Walter Cronkite School and also his law degree from the ASU School of Law. He had an article written about him in the Arizona Republic saying that he was not necessarily performing adoptions back then, but that he was dealing with the Marshallese women and trying to help facilitate these adoptions.

Ron Reigns:
It was very interesting that I found that article and it was high praise of him at the time from the Arizona Republic.

Kelly R.:
And he is a member of the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Ron Reigns:
That’s correct, the Mormon church.

Kelly R.:
And he did his mission in the Marshall Islands?

Ron Reigns:
Correct also, yes.

Kelly R.:
So that would be the connection that he may have to the Marshall Islands.

Ron Reigns:
Exactly.

Kelly R.:
Mr. Petersen was born in August 1975 in the 1990s. He’s a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints, serves as church mission in the Republic of Marshall Islands according to the court documents. For all of you who are wondering about where the Marshall Islands are located, they are located near the equator in the Pacific ocean between Hawaii and the Philippines and they have a population of about 53,000 people, which is not very big.

Ron Reigns:
That’s very… Matter of fact, that’s not much larger than Prescott Valley if you want to look at it that way.

Kelly R.:
Okay, so a really small community church.

Ron Reigns:
A small community here in Northern Arizona.

Kelly R.:
In 2002, Mr. Petersen graduates from the Sandra Day O’Connor School of Law at Arizona university. Earlier he earns a degree from ASU’s Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication. In 2005, he begins to arrange adoptions involving women from the Republic of the Marshall Islands according to Arizona authorities.

Kelly R.:
In 2014, Mr. Petersen wins a special election to replace Keith Russell who left his position as Maricopa County Assessor to become East Mesa justice of peace. The assessor is responsible for property valuation, which determines how much owners pay in property taxes. He also in 2014 begins to practice law in Arkansas.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. So there’s where our Arkansas connection is?

Kelly R.:
There’s the Arkansas connection. In November of 2015, Mr. Petersen and his co-defendant, Lynwood Jennet facilitate travel for pregnant women from the Republic of the Marshall Islands to Arizona. In November of 2016, Mr. Petersen wins a full four-year term as Assessor. His biography on the assessor’s website makes clear that he continues to practice law from his Mesa based office and his law practice remains committed to helping people across the country in their effort to adopt children.

Kelly R.:
April 2017, the FBI receives a tip that Petersen’s co-defendant in Arkansas Maki Tahehisa, is how I think you pronounce it, offered to pay up to $10,000 to pregnant Marshallese women to travel to the United States, give birth and consent to have their babies adopted by American parents. October 2017 callers to the Utah attorney General’s office, human trafficking tip line in October 2017 report suspicious births and adoptions involving Marshallese women in Utah hospitals sparking an investigation there.

Kelly R.:
November 2018, the nonprofit news organization, Honolulu Civil Beat, an investigative piece titled Black Market Babies, questions the legality of the adoptions Mr. Petersen administered. In December 2018, Arizona Department of Public Safety receives a tip that Mr. Petersen’s practices also appear suspicious in conducting adoptions involving pregnant women from the Republic of the Marshall Islands.

Kelly R.:
October 7th, 2019, Mr. Petersen and a co-defendant Lynwood Jennet are indicted in Arizona on 29 counts are fraudulent schemes and three counts of conspiracy, theft, and forgery. An investigation last year questioned the legality of adoptions Mr. Petersen administers through his private sector job as a private adoption attorney.

Kelly R.:
October 8th, 2019, Mr. Petersen is arrested and booked in Maricopa County jail. Prosecutors tell the judge at his initial court appearance that they consider him a flight risk and his cash bond is set at $500,000. October 9th at a news conference, State DPS Director Frank Milstead says, “Troopers found eight pregnant Marshallese women and a Mesa house owned by Mr. Petersen.”

Kelly R.:
Authorities in Utah on the same day announced 11 felony charges tied to Mr. Petersen’s adoption services. The U.S. attorney for the Western district of Arkansas unveils a 19 count indictment. DPS also learned that Mr. Petersen had been involved in adoptions of Marshallese babies since at least 2005. Let’s get into the nuts and bolts of this.

Ron Reigns:
Please.

Kelly R.:
Prosecutors are saying that Mr. Petersen used forged documents to make it look as if the women were Arizona residents.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And he did this so that they could get Medicaid, is that correct?

Kelly R.:
Right. What I understand is he would bring the pregnant women over from the Marshall Islands and tell them that they were going to come to the United States, have their baby, and then they were going to return to the Marshall Islands with a $10,000 amount of money… I’m sorry, a $10,000 check basically.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
He was bringing them over, getting them on access, at the same time, billing the adoptive families for the medical costs. Again, all this is speculation at this point because nothing has been proven-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
… but the American parents are stating that the cost for the adoption is up to $40,000. I’ve seen numbers when I was doing research from between 25,000 up to 40,000 for his services. The adoptive parents were reportedly told that part of the fees covered the pregnant women’s medical costs, and so that obviously is a huge concern.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Because we were already paying for their medical costs.

Kelly R.:
Correct?

Ron Reigns:
Through our taxes.

Kelly R.:
As Arizona residents.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. And then after these… Many of these women had their babies and places babies for adoption, he would then deduct money from the $10,000 allotment that he had promised them to cover their living costs while they were living in his home in the United States, which according to some of the research that I did, were not very high living standards.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
They were mattresses on the floor.

Ron Reigns:
Well, eight people in one house, four people in a room at times.

Kelly R.:
Sure.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Not great living conditions.

Kelly R.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
That’s a college dorm maybe.

Kelly R.:
Sure. At best.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And a pregnant woman may want more room, more privacy as she is getting ready to deliver her baby.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
What I was very relieved to read is that prosecutors in Utah are not questioning the completed adoptions.

Ron Reigns:
Good. Yes. And as well they shouldn’t.

Kelly R.:
They shouldn’t.

Ron Reigns:
I do have a question about that though. Okay. They did make it very clear in their press conference that they weren’t including the adoptions of those who had gone through already, so they’re not going back to…..

Kelly R.:
The finalized adoptions, correct.

Ron Reigns:
What about the eight, for instance, that are pregnant right now? What happens to them? Do we know?

Kelly R.:
We don’t. My educated prediction would be the women that are currently in Arizona waiting to deliver babies will probably be returned to the Marshall Islands, unless they have some type of passport or clearance to stay in the United States.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. So they’re not going to follow through with the adopting families on those particular cases because they haven’t been completed and consents haven’t been signed.

Kelly R.:
Well, the babies haven’t even been born.

Ron Reigns:
And the babies haven’t been born, correct. Okay.

Kelly R.:
And in the state of Arizona, you cannot sign consents until 72 hours after the baby is born.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
That being the case, there is no adoption per se at this point, so I would find it hard to believe that the adoption would proceed considering the fact that this hasn’t been done legitimately from the start.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I do find it very reassuring and very gracious on the part of the prosecutors in Utah saying upfront that they’re not questioning any of the adoptions that have already occurred.

Ron Reigns:
I agree.

Kelly R.:
That can definitely put adoptive families minds at ease and they can hug their babies and know that nobody’s is going to-

Ron Reigns:
They’re not going to come and-

Kelly R.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
… bust down the door and take the baby from them.

Kelly R.:
I’m sure that was the first thought that we could have had.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, can you imagine?

Kelly R.:
No, I can’t. That’s terrific.

Kelly R.:
Another point that was very interesting to me was Linda Henning Gansler is listed on the website as a director of Bright Star Adoptions. This agency is affiliated from what it appears with Mr. Petersen.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
So it’s his-

Ron Reigns:
To what degree?

Kelly R.:
Right. To what degree is this his… Is he funneling adoptions through Bright Star Adoptions? Because he, from what I understand, was a sole practitioner in his law firm. Is that correct?

Ron Reigns:
It sounds like it. Yes. So yeah. Is Bright… Because right now as it stands, the only indictments that have come through have been against Mr. Petersen as well as Lynwood Jennet.

Kelly R.:
And Maki-

Ron Reigns:
Right. Those are the only three that have indictments against them from that we know.

Kelly R.:
From what I’ve read this morning, correct.

Ron Reigns:
Apparently at this time Bright Star hasn’t been implicated in this illegal activity.

Kelly R.:
That is-

Ron Reigns:
But that’s not to say they won’t be.

Kelly R.:
That is correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
In Utah, investigators found that Mr. Petersen took in millions of dollars in nearly two years from the adoptions that he was performing between December 2016 and September 2018, bank account records subpoenaed by an investigator show a little more than two point $7 million-

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
… going into an account that Mr. Petersen told families was for wire transfers. Most of the transfers, the investigator with the Utah Attorney General’s Office wrote, “Included notes that indicated they were adoption payments.” For the Marshallese women interviewed by the investigator in Utah said they were offered the $10,000 for doing the adoption.

Kelly R.:
They also told the investigator that the money significantly influenced their decision to go through with adoptions according to court documents.

Ron Reigns:
Now that amounts to baby selling, am I correct?

Kelly R.:
Correct. Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
Not only is it that, the problem with that is if a woman states that she was influenced in her adoption choice, that is where coercion can come into play.

Ron Reigns:
And the whole thing can be nullified.

Kelly R.:
In the state of Arizona-

Ron Reigns:
Yes.

Kelly R.:
… and this was stated in the State of Utah.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
I can’t speak for Utah Laws, but in the state of Arizona, the only way that you can overturn an adoption is through coercion, so of coercion can be proven, then that can jeopardize the stability of an adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And if I offer you $10,000 for anything, that’s pretty much evidence of coercion.

Kelly R.:
It could be consumed as such.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. I want to go back to something else because I had thought that he was double bilking people as it was. Let’s talk about the health insurance thing-

Kelly R.:
Okay.

Ron Reigns:
… where, okay, first he’s charging the adoptive family for health insurance when he’s going through this, then he’s having the birth mothers falsely get access, so that’s paying for the health insurance from our tax dollars. And then thirdly, he’s knocking it off the top of the monies he’s promising them. So he’s tripled billing.

Kelly R.:
Well, no, I think it’s more double billing. I think he was knocking off monies from the Marshallese women more for living expenses, is what I was reading-

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
… rather than their medical expenses.

Ron Reigns:
All right.

Kelly R.:
So I think, yes, double billing for sure. Maybe he included some, but I read that that was more geared towards the living expenses.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
Because it was his home that he was bringing the women into.

Ron Reigns:
Right. So that’s, not that it’s justified, but it’s a little more understandable and it’s not possibly illegal to do that.

Kelly R.:
It would honestly depend on how he was defining the end result, the end $10,000.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
When he was talking with the women, it would behoove the court and the prosecutors to see if there was a service agreement between him and the birth mothers, and in that service agreement it should be stipulated whether or not there was going to be any fees deducted from the final amount, which I don’t know if the $10,000 was stated as post-birth living expenses or whether it was stated a quote gift, or whether it was a direct payment for a product, in this case, a baby.

Ron Reigns:
Which would be baby selling.

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
It’s situations like this that make society question the whole black market. Is this black market? Is this black market-

Ron Reigns:
The legitimacy of adoption in general.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. And this is also what like for instance in Guatemala, shut down adoptions and Guatemala. Now, do I think this is going to shut down adoptions and era in the United States or in Arizona? No, I don’t.

Ron Reigns:
No, no.

Kelly R.:
I do think that it is important for laws to be enforced. I do think that when you are dealing with human lives, there should be scrutiny over what an agency or adoption entity is doing. That’s the reason that all adoption agencies have to go through annual renewals for their license and we have a worker that comes out and goes through all of our files and walks through the office and looks at our contracts and looks at our documents.

Kelly R.:
And not only do they do that once a year, they can do unannounced visits as well.

Ron Reigns:
As well, they should.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely.

Ron Reigns:
Some oversight is important. You want there to be regulation and not just, it’s not the wild West out there.

Kelly R.:
Correct. And as well there should be, like you said-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
… there is no reason that when you are dealing with human lives and human trafficking is so abundant right now in the world that there shouldn’t be like you said, an extra set of eyes, double checking, making sure that you’re following laws, you’re following protocol. I will say that because Mr. Petersen allegedly has taken these illegal actions, has participated in these illegal actions, my hope is that good will come from this and it will globally educate people about adoption.

Kelly R.:
Not only those who are interested in adopting or in the adoption process, but that it will encourage agencies to be more transparent. That’s one thing with Building Arizona Families that I’ve always stated to all of our workers as well as the families that adopt through us and our birth mothers is transparency is vital in adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Hopefully this will chase out some of the outliers and the bad elements, the bad actors in this. Do you think that there are adoption attorneys and adoption agencies that due to the light being shown on Petersen’s case might start getting very nervous about their own practices?

Kelly R.:
If they’re not on the up and up.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
I think adoptive families or families that are considering adoption don’t need to be scared. I think they need to look at it as a wakeup call in the sense that do your education, do your research, check and see if the agency is licensed, see how long they’ve held their license, check and see if their license has ever been suspended.

Kelly R.:
Check and see if they hold any other accreditations. Check and see if they’re registered with the Better Business Bureau. Check and see who their affiliates are. This is where when you are buying a home or you are even buying a car, you do a lot of research.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
That’s comparable to adding a family member.

Ron Reigns:
Right, exactly.

Kelly R.:
It’s not in the same level.

Ron Reigns:
Expanding your family with a child.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. Because you’re not just talking about a monetary expense, you’re talking about an emotional expense, a physical expense because of the toll it’s going to take on you. Adopting a child is going to affect every aspect of your life. And as a partaker in that you should do your research, you should have a good understanding of what is right and what is not right.

Kelly R.:
Another recommendation would be for adoptive families to ask for references from families that have previously adopted through them.

Ron Reigns:
That makes sense. And all this stuff is so much more readily available to people who want to do the research and should do the research because we have the internet now.

Kelly R.:
We do.

Ron Reigns:
And so it’s not that hard to look up the Better Business Bureau and find out about the agency, the lawyer, whoever you’re discussing an adoption program with.

Kelly R.:
Additionally, I think it’s also important if the agency that you’re working with has other accreditations to look and see what those accreditations are. For example, Building Arizona Families, as I’ve mentioned before, has a Hague accreditation. A Hague accreditation is not necessary for a domestic adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
It’s solely for international adoptions. But what it means is that an additional entity, in our case, it was the Coalition On Adoption Accreditation that came in and did their own investigation through all of our files, and our forms, and our financial audits and gave us the accreditation.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Additionally, we had another set of eyes going through and scrutinizing our practices, which is important.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely.

Kelly R.:
I find it very interesting that Mr. Petersen’s lawyer, Matthew Long has defended his client’s actions as proper business practices and said that they’re disagreeing with the allegations. I think unfortunately, this may be a very hard case to fight due to the number of incidents that have occurred and what they have found to be true.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
There’s no disputing that the women were put on Medicaid for Arizona, which we title AHCCCS, which is an acronym for Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System. The investigators in Utah found that more than 40 women traveled from the Marshall Islands to Utah to give birth.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, okay. So, I was wrong earlier when I said that they were transported from Arizona to Utah.

Kelly R.:
Right. They came from the Marshall Islands to Utah-

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
… and Petersen claimed to be the facilitator of those adoptions. The records of those plane tickets were actually paid for by Mr. Petersen’s credit card.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
And two of the adoptive parents told investigators they visited a home owned by Mr. Petersen in a suburb of Salt Lake City where the pregnant women lived.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
They said they saw as many as 15 pregnant women living on the floor, some sleeping on mattresses on a bare floor.

Ron Reigns:
Wow. See, now you’re getting into more territory that sounds like human trafficking. While they say that these women came voluntarily, they’re still living in these conditions.

Kelly R.:
Right. And that begs the question, did the women understand the process? Did they understand what they’re being asked to do? Did they understand the ramifications? Did they understand that this was under false pretenses potentially? Did they understand really what adoption was? Is there a language barrier? Was this a concern?

Kelly R.:
One of the adoptive parents interviewed by investigators in Utah said that where the pregnant women lived was very similar to what you would consider a Baby Mill.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
That’s really upsetting to myself as a woman or I’m sure as society in general.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. As a person, just knowing that they’re putting people in these conditions and promising them something better.

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
I have a question for you.

Kelly R.:
Sure.

Ron Reigns:
I don’t know, I try to see the good in people and it makes me wonder, he’s been doing these adoptions since at least 2005 it sounds like.

Kelly R.:
Involved in them to some aspect.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Well, what I want to know is, do you think he started off with great intentions and it just slowly but surely things started to escalate and it’s like, well, we could get them healthcare, let’s just fill… And just one little thing, it doesn’t matter if we do one little thing wrong.

Ron Reigns:
And then next thing you know, it becomes this huge human trafficking type situation, baby selling and it just snowballed on him or do you think that he was a corrupt person, obviously we’re speculating here from the start?

Kelly R.:
I want to believe that anybody who is trying to positively impact the lives of women and children is doing it for the right reasons.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
The fact that he did his mission in the Marshall Islands-

Ron Reigns:
And probably saw the conditions.

Kelly R.:
… and saw the conditions that the women were living in and was trying to do good, I would like to believe that it started out with good intent.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And maybe even to this day he still thinks I’m doing a good thing.

Kelly R.:
Yeah. I can’t speculate-

Ron Reigns:
Even if I’m skirting the law. Right.

Kelly R.:
… on what he’s thinking, but-

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly R.:
… I would hope that this was not done with malicious intent. When you look at where adoptions evolve and change and how they can negatively impact globally, whether it’s people or countries, you look at countries like Romania and countries like Guatemala that had a huge adoption rate internationally to the United States.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Both countries stopped and halted the process because they went black market.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
Practices in those countries led to money being the motivator rather than women and children being the motivation behind-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
…. the reason.

Ron Reigns:
And lives, right.

Kelly R.:
And looking at those two countries, especially Romania, we’ve all seen pictures of the children in orphanages and the babies left in the cribs because of the vast numbers of children that are in these orphanages and the ratio of staff to babies, and we’ve seen the damage that it can cause when a baby doesn’t have that individualized care.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
As we have said in other podcasts, when you know better, you do better. That is not what is happening in this case with allegedly with what Mr. Petersen has done. It is illegal for Marshallese women to travel to United States for the purpose of adoption. It is also illegal to scam Arizona’s Medicaid system, which State Attorney General, Paul Brnovich alleges Maricopa County Assessor, Paul Petersen did when he helped these women illegally access State funded medical benefits to the tune of $814,000.

Ron Reigns:
Wow. That’s unbelievable.

Kelly R.:
That’s a lot of money.

Ron Reigns:
And that’s just in the past three years, it sounds like.

Kelly R.:
That’s how I would interpret the information as well.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I hope that the families that have adopted through his practice can find peace.

Ron Reigns:
I think that’ll be tough emotionally for a while.

Kelly R.:
I do too. I also hope that if this comes to fruition that these allegations are in fact true, that the women who were brought over from the Marshall Islands can receive some sort of assistance because they would absolutely be victims of him.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. There’s a lot of victims and very few perpetrators in this,

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
… it sounds like.

Kelly R.:
And in this situation, unfortunately, all members of the adoption triad could definitely be negatively affected by it.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly R.:
I don’t know if there were post-adoption communication agreements between them. A lot of times internationally there’s not. If there’s an international adoption, there’s not a post-adoption communication agreement. In most cases, there are post-placement reports that are generated., but again, these weren’t presented as international adoptions, they were presented as domestic adoptions.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I wonder what the women who are being brought over from the Marshall Islands, I wonder what they were thinking. I wonder what they were promised, which is why I had referred to if there was a service agreement between them. I wonder how they found out about Mr. Petersen and his adoption practice. Those are questions that I have.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I wonder if by keeping the women in house together, he was hoping that they would have a sense of community and encourage one another, and it’s almost the group mentality type. If it’s late at night and we want to go jump in a Lake and go swimming, if one person does it, you don’t know if you want to jump in with them, if a second person does it, you feel a little safer.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
If a group of people-

Ron Reigns:
But if four people jump in the lake-

Kelly R.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
… you’re like, “I’m all in.”

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. Then you’re jumping in that lake. I don’t know what impact short-term, long-term this is going to have on his family, his wife, his children. I don’t know what’s going to happen if he’s found not guilty, whether or not he will be disbarred on another charge. I don’t know what this will carry in terms of long-term ramifications.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Obviously, it’s going to affect the family financially, emotionally. Anytime, even if every charge was dropped tomorrow, the kids are going to have this memory in there, and I don’t know how old they are. They’re going to have the memory of dad going to prison or jail.

Kelly R.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
That’s-

Kelly R.:
That’s huge.

Ron Reigns:
That’s huge.

Kelly R.:
That’s huge.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, it will definitely negatively impact them. And for how long? Like you said, that’s up for speculation.

Kelly R.:
Who knows?

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.:
I really hope that at the end of the day, and when this is all settled, and whatever verdict comes to fruition that this was not done with malicious intent.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I think he did probably originally especially have great intentions of helping-

Kelly R.:
I hope so.

Ron Reigns:
… these birth mothers in the Marshall Islands.

Kelly R.:
And I hope that this podcast can help educate society on what’s going on in the adoption world, why this is important, why education, which is the platform for the podcast is so important, and hopefully as we learn more and the case develops further, we will have more insight as to the questions that we still have.

Kelly R.:
When an adoptive family is looking and choosing an adoption agency, I think it’s important to know where the birth mothers are located that the adoption agency is working with. That is one reason that Building Arizona Families solely works with Arizona residents.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Medicaid, like I’ve stated before in Arizona is titled AHCCCS, and AHCCCS fraud is a felony, I believe. I think my biggest hope in terms of an outcome is that if the alleged charges against Mr. Petersen are true and his accomplices, that they will be sanctioned appropriately, adoptive families can find peace. The women who gave birth to these babies also can find peace.

Kelly R.:
I don’t know if any due diligence was served upon the birth fathers. I don’t know what aspect the birth fathers are going to play in terms of whether they themselves are victims as well. I don’t know what impact this will have on them and I don’t know what impact this may have on the adopted children as they grow up and understand the surroundings of their adoption and what occurred.

Kelly R.:
And as society, I think it’s our role to provide assistance to them and to the families and support, unconditional support because as a victim, this was nothing that they did wrong.

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly R.:
And I would hope that any adoptive family that is a party to this does not look at themselves and think, I should have done something differently, or I wish I had done more research, I wish that I had done this or that, or turns and blames themselves. I really hope that they can see that this happened and-

Ron Reigns:
There’s nothing you can do about it at this point.

Kelly R.:
At this point.

Ron Reigns:
But like you said, hopefully they can find that peace.

Kelly R.:
Yes. That is what I wish for them is for them to find the peace, and for Mr. Petersen, if these allegations again come to fruition and he is found guilty, I really hope that he takes the opportunity and educates the prosecutors and the courts what he did, why he did it, and that way we can make sure that it’s not done again because if he does have-

Ron Reigns:
That they can spot when it’s-

Kelly R.:
… inside information-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
… that it can be used to prevent this from happening in the future. There’s got to be a silver lining in this and we need to find it.

Ron Reigns:
Kelly was interviewed by KTAR Radio’s, Jim Sharpe on Friday morning, October 11th. Here’s what that sounded like.

Speaker 7:
KTAR, in depth.

Jim Sharpe:
With the story breaking this week that Maricopa County Assessor, Paul Petersen, an elected official who also happens to be an adoption attorney was involved in some very questionable even illegal adoption practices, which included keeping pregnant women from the Marshall Islands in some very cramped conditions in at least two States. I started to think about what this will do to legitimate adoptions.

Jim Sharpe:
And joining us is Kelly Rourke-Scarry, the President and CEO of Arizona’s largest adoption agency known as Building Arizona Families. Kelly, thanks for being with us. I love, I think like everybody does those new stories we see where a family court judge puts kids and adults who aren’t technically related in front of them and pronounces them a family. Are we going to see fewer of these beautiful scenes in Arizona thanks to Paul Petersen?

Kelly R.:
Thank you. No, I don’t believe that we will. I think that the public will understand that adoption is still one that is an entity that needs to continue to occur. I think families who believe in adoption will continue to follow the adoption process. So, no, I do not believe that this will impact the families who want to adopt.

Jim Sharpe:
But I’m sure you do anticipate some greater scrutiny by at least adoptive parents and maybe even some birth moms, right?

Kelly R.:
I do think that people are going to do more research, which is always a good thing. Agencies like ours believe in education, that’s why we use a podcast twice a week to inform families and just society in general about adoption. And that’s really important for people who are going to adopt to educate themselves.

Jim Sharpe:
Definitely you want to be scrutinizing those situations of course, but are you anticipating a greater scrutiny by the Arizona legislature, maybe some new laws?

Kelly R.:
That’s a possibility definitely. I also think that maybe they will tighten the laws that are currently in place. I think enforcing those laws is the most important thing to do. We do have amazing laws in place and if they’re followed, that’s one of the reasons as an adoption agency that we’re licensed. Every year we have to go through a full licensure examination, meaning they come out to our office to go through our files, to go through our records, they speak with our clients, they walk through our office. And that’s really important to make sure that as an agency we’re following protocol.

Jim Sharpe:
What should families be looking out for and birth moms for this matter when it comes to working with an adoption agency? What questions should they be asking to make sure that they’re not caught up in something like what Paul Petersen was up to?

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. I would say to make sure they’re working with a licensed agency, find out what licenses and accreditations they hold. Maybe look into the Better Business Bureau and see if they’re registered. Find out how long they’ve been licensed and practiced, how many placements they do in a year. And definitely asked to speak to references of families who have adopted.

Kelly R.:
Also, they would want to look and see, does this agency offer education? Do they have a way to promote adoption education outside of just what the agency recommends? In other words, again, we have a podcast, Birth Mother Matters in Adoption because we want society as a whole, not just those adopting to really understand what adoption is and how it affects all angles of the adoption triad.

Jim Sharpe:
All right. Thank you, Kelly. Kelly Rourke-Scarry is the Co-Founder, the President and CEO of Building Arizona Families, Arizona’s largest adoption agency, and the first question she answered makes me very happy. She says she doesn’t think that there’s going to be a drop-in adoptions in Arizona thanks to this Paul Petersen case. now at KTAR.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and the You Before Me Campaign. Thanks to KTAR, 92.3 in Phoenix, Arizona.

Ron Reigns:
A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t know as our theme song. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.

Speaker 1:
Tell Me Again About the Night I Was Born by Jamie Lee Curtis and illustrated by Laura Cornell. Tell me again about the night I was born. Tell me how you and daddy were curled up like spoons and daddy was snoring. Tell me again how the phone rang in the middle of the night and they told you I was born. Tell me how you screamed. Tell me again how you called granny and grandpa right away, but they didn’t hear the phone because they sleep like logs. Tell me again how you got on an airplane with my baby bag and flew to get me and how there was no movie.

Speaker 2:
What?

Speaker 1:
Only peanuts.

Speaker 2:
Okay, I like peanuts.

Speaker 1:
Tell me again how you couldn’t grow a baby in your tummy, so another woman who was too young to take care of me was growing me and she would be my birth mother and you would adopt me and be my parents. Tell me again how you held hands all the way to the hospital and when you got there, you both got very quiet.

Speaker 2:
Shh.

Speaker 1:
And felt very small. Tell me again about the first time you saw me through the nursery window and how you couldn’t believe something so small could make you smile so big. Tell me again how tiny and perfect I was. Tell me again about the first time you held me in your arms, and you called me your baby sweet. Tell me again how you cried happy tears. Tell me again how you carried me like a China doll all the way home and how you glared at anyone who sneezed.

Speaker 1:
Tell me again about my first bottle and how I liked it so much. Tell me again about my first diaper change and how I didn’t like it at all. Tell me again about the first night you were my daddy and you told me about baseball being the perfect game like your daddy told you. Tell me again about the first night you were my mommy and you sang the lullaby your mommy sang to you. Tell me again about our first night as a family. Mommy, Daddy, tell me again about the night I was born.

Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 4:
Do what’s best for your kid, and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 5:
And I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 6:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 7:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke:
All right, so let’s talk about growing up as an adopted child. This is something I have a lot of experience with.

Ron Reigns:
One would think yes, definitely.

Kelly Rourke:
Yes. There are definitely highs and lows. In talking about this, there are a lot of aspects in growing up as an adopted child that are very personal. I want to share this with our listeners, because I believe that it will help us elevate the understanding of adoption as a whole. The adopted child is one angle of the triad. There has been a lot of research done on adopted children. There have been a lot of books, a lot of studies, a lot of interviews, and frankly a lot of interest. Where I think that it’s important to continue all of this research and interest in adopted children is going back to when you know better, you do better.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
And when society changes, the impact in the change of society will affect an adopted child.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
An example would be Ancestry.com, 23andMe, and then there’s a few other of those tests. And I, myself, as an adult have taken both of them.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
Now, there is not an age limit. So if there is an adopted child, and the adoptive parents allow the child to take this test, and they learn about it, it really can influence some of their thoughts and feelings and emotions as an adopted child. So that’s one way that as society is evolving and changing, and technology is getting stronger, there’s Facebook, there’s social media. And so when we’re doing studies, and we’re doing interviews, and we’re researching the impact of adoption on children and how they’re going to respond, I believe that it’s very important that we continue down this road.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. Yeah. And I think there’s benefits to the 23andMe and Ancestry.com. But there’s also drawbacks, I would think, especially for a child, because aren’t they very emotional just by being a child, and then it just brings more anxiety or am I wrong?

Kelly Rourke:
I think it would depend on the maturity of the child. I think it would depend on the actual age. I think it would depend on the intent. So if the intent was to find out what nationality, ethnicity you officially are, and the percentages, I don’t see how that would be detrimental.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
If it was to look at who you’re related to, that could be a compromising position, depending on the maturity level and the age. I would say that’s a real possibility that would be damaging in some senses or could be, have the potential. I think the other part that might be kind of fun is in the 23andMe, there’s a lot of I don’t know what they call them.

Ron Reigns:
Where it tells you, for instance, oh, you’re more prone to like sweet foods and salty.

Kelly Rourke:
Absolutely, correct.

Ron Reigns:
Things like that. Yeah, I’ve heard the commercials.

Kelly Rourke:
When I did it and I got it back, it was really interesting. I would say it was pretty accurate. I don’t think it was 100% on, but they say it’s not. I mean, it’s a percentage of so many people, and I still get emails. Even though I did it almost about a year and a half ago, I get emails from them stating that they have come up with a new study and I fall into this category and it’s funny.

Ron Reigns:
Interesting, so it continues to expand.

Kelly Rourke:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
That’s cool.

Kelly Rourke:
And some of the categories that they have are so funny. One of them that made me laugh is, is your second toe longer than your big toe?

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
That was accurate.

Ron Reigns:
It was.

Kelly Rourke:
So I thought that was funny. Those kind of things, yeah, do you prefer salty over sweet?

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
Are you more prone to drink more caffeine than the average person? Those kind of things are really funny to me.

Ron Reigns:
And fascinating.

Kelly Rourke:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
Because you’re learning about yourself, and it would be the same for an adopted child too.

Kelly Rourke:
Sure. So in those aspects, I think it would be very kind of fun. It would give the ability for them to at least understand what nationality they are.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
And that can be important if they don’t know what it is. But again, I think it’s definitely something that a parent would have to look at their child and see if it was beneficial, see how it would impact them, what the ramifications were, and make those decisions. I don’t think for a young child, it would be beneficial. Definitely an older child closer to the age of 18, maybe. But again, only with the parental consent and if it was appropriate.

Ron Reigns:
Right, the parental support too. If they’re supportive emotionally as parents anyway, then it’s harder to envision seeing problems from something like this.

Kelly Rourke:
Correct. Another aspect to consider would be, if this is something you’re going to do, what are you going to do with the information? Anytime you’re going to introduce your child to something new, I think it’s always good to weigh the pros and cons, and think about how this could negatively or positively impact the child. What outweighs what, and then make a decision.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
And that would be a good example. One thing that I know that I did as a child is, I would think about my birth mother. And as a child, you fantasize, you have these dreams of grandeur. You have these …

Ron Reigns:
She’s a movie star, or things-

Kelly Rourke:
No, I thought she was royalty.

Ron Reigns:
Obviously.

Kelly Rourke:
I thought for sure I had to have been a princess in some long line of kings and queens.

Ron Reigns:
Right. You watched too much King Ralph as a kid and so you thought, oh, this is obvious. I’m a princess.

Kelly Rourke:
I must have, because I was convinced. Right. I was convinced that I was placed for adoption because the lineage, it would have been an issue and they wanted to make sure that it didn’t dethrone anybody. I carried this for a very long time.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
I really believed that I was of the elite. And obviously that was wishful thinking.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Now, when you found out and granted you were how old when …

Kelly Rourke:
34.

Ron Reigns:
34 when you found out. Was there a little piece of you inside that was kind of disappointed. Did you always hold out that hope?

Kelly Rourke:
That is a really good question. In some aspects, I wouldn’t be honest if I said no.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
I remember thinking when I found out I’m not royalty. Okay.

Ron Reigns:
I guess I can deal with this.

Kelly Rourke:
Yes, I can process that. And it was almost like a blindside in a way, because I had from the time I was 12 to the time I was 18, I lived in a suburb of La Jolla, California, and grew up in a-

Ron Reigns:
Lucky.

Kelly Rourke:
Upper middle class family.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
And that was what I knew, that was my world. When I met my birth mother, she was living in Grove City, Ohio. She had moved there after she had lived in West Virginia. She had lived in West Virginia pretty much her whole life, except for when she was pregnant with me, they lived in Ohio and then they went back to West Virginia. She went back to West Virginia after she had me and my brothers were born there and raised there. When I first talked to her on the phone, I remember thinking, wow, I can barely understand her because her accent was so strong.

Ron Reigns:
Why don’t I talk like her?

Kelly Rourke:
And so I started to think, is this right? I got really confused really quickly because I thought wow, I kept asking her to say it again. And I’m sorry I don’t … What? What? That was our first conversation, and I wish to God I’d recorded it because probably now it would be very funny to listen to. I think she would agree. I think she would absolutely agree because not only did she have a very, very West Virginia Southern accent, but there is almost a different language. She would use words like Davenport instead of a sofa.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke:
It was something that it took me … I used to almost think wow, okay, I’m going to learn a language, and you do and it didn’t take a long time. I caught on really quick because we spent hours and hours on the phone. But going from thinking, okay, well maybe when we meet, we can go on a Disney Cruise and start there.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
And when we first talked on the phone, it was on a Friday, and I flew out the following Wednesday with one of my best friends, leaving the husband and kids at home. And we got there and I wasn’t royalty, and it wasn’t a disappointment. It wasn’t what I was expecting. I think I was so much in shock of not knowing what to expect. I bonded immediately with my brothers, and I bonded with my mother. I loved learning about them.

Ron Reigns:
Right and learning “their language”.

Kelly Rourke:
Absolutely. I remember saying to her on the phone, I really want to see a picture of you. And so she emailed me a picture and when I saw the picture, it was of her in an above ground pool.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
It was undeniable, you could definitely see the resemblance.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke:
It was absolutely life changing. I think it was one of those moments when you have a baby biologically, and the baby’s born, and the doctor pulls the baby out and puts the baby on your chest. With all four of my biological children, every single time I thought, “Wow, it’s a baby.”

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
You know it’s a baby, you know the baby’s going to come out. And I know I’ve said this in podcasts before, but there’s still that moment of this is a baby.

Ron Reigns:
How did this happen? Right, yeah, yeah.

Kelly Rourke:
So it was very much a similar mindset when I spoke with her the first time, and I started learning all about her. When my friend, Kim and I flew out, and we met her for the first time, Kim said to me something that I’ll never forget. She said, “What are you looking to find?”

Ron Reigns:
Good question.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah. I remember pausing for a moment, and I said, “I’m hoping to find myself.” And I think that is what every adopted child in the back of their mind, at the front of their mind, at some point during their childhood or adulthood, is wanting to know, understand and actualize. I wasn’t prepared at 18 or 21 or 25 at that point to go into finding my birth mother.

Kelly Rourke:
People often will ask me, “Well, if you were so curious and you wanted to know her and what happened, what surrounded your adoption situation, why did you wait so long?” And that was one of the questions that she asked me first is why I waited so long.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
I grew up as a very stable adopted child. I wasn’t looking for a second mom, I wasn’t looking for a replacement mom.

Ron Reigns:
Right. You had a stable home that you were a part of.

Kelly Rourke:
I had a stable home, correct. When I made the decision to locate my birth mother, and hopefully have a relationship with her, which I was able to, it was twofold. I wanted to learn more about myself. And at that time in my life, I very much wanted to have a relationship. Because I felt in learning about her, I would learn more about me. And I wanted to show her how much I appreciated what she had done, and what a good choice she had made.

Ron Reigns:
Because you had, like you said, a stable, wonderful life.

Kelly Rourke:
And I wanted to share with her that I had begun an adoption agency, and I had really wanted her to be proud of that, because out of her decision was the result of so many lives being changed.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
In going back to growing up as an adopted child, the questions that adopted children have, and I’m speaking from a personal and a professional stance when I’m describing these questions, not every child is going to have these questions. Not every child is going to have the same line of thinking. It will depend on the age they were when they were adopted. It will depend on if they were a newborn adoption or they were adopted older in life.

Kelly Rourke:
But the questions that run through I would say they are typical questions, common questions, would be why did you place me for adoption? Was something wrong with me? Did you love me? And that’s a big one. Because birth mothers place out of love.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
And I think that that’s something that adopted children really need to understand. This was done in love.

Ron Reigns:
Right. It wasn’t, I need to get rid of this. This was a burden.

Kelly Rourke:
Right, this was a mistake. I need to fix my mistake. That’s not what this is. This is out of love. Another question was, do I have siblings? I learned that I had two brothers, which was really neat. The other thing that I had always wanted to know was who knows about me? And this is really interesting, because not many family members, as I’ve shared before, knew that my mother-

Ron Reigns:
You even existed.

Kelly Rourke:
Had had a third child.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
I was the first, but there was three children, not just two. And so when I came out of the woodwork, and I flew out to-

Ron Reigns:
Quite a shock for a lot of people.

Kelly Rourke:
It really was.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke:
It really was. It was a shock. My mother had to answer a lot of questions, and-

Ron Reigns:
You think that was pretty hard on her? Or do you think she felt it was kind of a blessing to finally unburden herself?

Kelly Rourke:
I think she almost found it cathartic, because she had held this for so long and had shared it with so few people, that it went to a point that when she would go to the doctor, she would show the doctor pictures of me. She would tell the doctor all about her adoption story.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke:
She wasn’t able to do that for so many years, and this gave her the freedom to tell her story. There was a funny situation that I still kind of giggle about when I think about it. There was a night that during that first visit where she decided to have like a family get together at her house, and believe it or not, I am a little bit of an introvert, like I really …

Ron Reigns:
What?

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
No, I don’t see it.

Kelly Rourke:
I was there. My friend Kim obviously was there as well. My brothers were there. My mother’s husband was there. And then a lot of her siblings came over and we have lots of pictures of it. I remember looking at everybody and being fascinated. But at the same time, I also remember slipping out the door and going into the garage and talking with her husband and my brothers who were hanging out in the garage smoking.

Kelly Rourke:
It was almost overwhelming even for me. Especially because one of my cousins had said, and he was joking, I think. I’m sure he was joking. He said, “Would you stand on the coffee table and turn around so we can just all look at you?” And that was when I ducked out the back door.

Ron Reigns:
Wow, look at the time.

Kelly Rourke:
And I know that it was … They were all trying to put the pieces together and figure out …

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, this situation, what’s going on.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah. The situation and the relation and who I looked like, and it was really neat to see everybody, but again, in some aspects, it was a little overwhelming for me. It was a little much.

Ron Reigns:
And it probably was for them as well, but I mean, wow.

Kelly Rourke:
They seemed to be okay.

Ron Reigns:
You were a fish out of water over there.

Kelly Rourke:
I was. I was a fish out of water. Although, I will say I was in some aspects very comfortable. It was almost like I had found my tribe in some ways.

Ron Reigns:
Wow. That’s cool.

Kelly Rourke:
And that was cool. That was very cool. In children, they’re going to want to know, like, who knows about me? That is a really big deal because when you’re older and if you decide to look for your biological family and if you don’t have an open adoption, so you want to look for your biological family, that is something that you will want to know because you don’t know who you’re going to come across.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and what to say.

Kelly Rourke:
Correct, and what to say.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
Mother’s Day was always bittersweet for me, with my-

Ron Reigns:
Before or even after as well?

Kelly Rourke:
Before I found her.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, right.

Kelly Rourke:
I always celebrated and will always celebrate my adoptive mother, on Mother’s Day.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
She raised me, she was an amazing mother. But at the same time, I knew that I had another mother out there too.

Ron Reigns:
And you want to celebrate with her.

Kelly Rourke:
I was wishing there was some way yeah, that I could celebrate with her. I made sure from the moment that I met her that I never missed a Mother’s Day and I always send bouquets of flowers and so forth, because I never had that opportunity before.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
And now that I’ve lost her, that’s hard because I’ve gone back to not being able to celebrate with her. So that’s hard. Birthdays were I would say the hardest, my birthday, and I never understood it as a child and even as a young adult, up until probably in the last decade.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
When I was younger, I always remember thinking, that’s our day with my birth mother, that’s our day.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
The funny thing is when I met my birth mother, my birthday is on the 14th, of the month. And I was born in the middle of the night, close to around midnight, she couldn’t remember which day it was. So here I’m having this moment and she’s not even quite sure which day.

Ron Reigns:
You’re doing this whole Fievel, somewhere and your mom’s going, was it today or yesterday?

Kelly Rourke:
Was it today or tomorrow?

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, exactly. That’s hilarious.

Kelly Rourke:
That was kind of, yeah.

Ron Reigns:
I mean, I know it was right in the …

Kelly Rourke:
Exactly, exactly.

Ron Reigns:
Was it after midnight. Okay, that’s funny.

Kelly Rourke:
She would say, on that day, I would go out and I will look at the stars and I would think about you and I thought, yeah, I didn’t go out and look at the stars and have that Kumbaya moment, but it was something.

Ron Reigns:
The Fievel thing.

Kelly Rourke:
Right. So I didn’t like birthdays.

Ron Reigns:
Really?

Kelly Rourke:
No.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
Because it was a reminder of a loss.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
Even though I think she made the best, most amazing choice when she chose adoption, it doesn’t negate the fact that it’s still a loss.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Kelly Rourke:
And so as a whole, I don’t like birthdays. I don’t like my children’s birthdays. Because to me, they’re a reminder of they’re a day older and a day closer to when they leave the nest. And so my kids will say, “Oh, it’s your birthday, or my birthday is coming up.” And of course, as a parent, you celebrate their birthday and you do all the things that you should do, but in my heart, I don’t like birthdays.

Ron Reigns:
Interesting.

Kelly Rourke:
It’s not something that I think will probably ever go away because birthdays aren’t associated with positive things in my mind.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
Kind of a different take.

Ron Reigns:
It is a very different take.

Kelly Rourke:
And it’s something that our listeners may not realize. Now, that’s not to say that every adopted child is going to feel that way.

Ron Reigns:
Right, or even every person, because I don’t see birthdays as like a bad … Not a bad thing, negative thing, like you do, but I almost see them as a non-thing. Just like, okay, I was born on that day, for instance, or especially for myself. Now, for others, I’m kind of like you. I’m like, oh, that’s a happy day and I’ll celebrate. But when I think of myself, it’s just a day.

Kelly Rourke:
Right, and I can play the game. Don’t get me wrong. We celebrate with the kids that you know we don’t talk. I don’t share this.

Ron Reigns:
You do huge birthday parties. It’s fun and have all the people over.

Kelly Rourke:
I do. I do, probably reverse effect.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, so you overcompensate. I see.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
I think we’re starting to get to the bottom of you. No, I’m just kidding. Like I’m doing a psychological …

Kelly Rourke:
I’m saying this is becoming a little bit like a therapy session, but that’s okay. That’s okay.

Ron Reigns:
No, it’s fun.

Kelly Rourke:
I think what is very cool, very, very cool is when children that are adopted internationally, especially this, I think, I believe started in China, but I’m not sure so don’t hold me to that. When China adoptions became big, they would celebrate Gotcha Day, in addition to a birthday and I think that is absolutely …

Ron Reigns:
Oh, I see. That’s the day I gotcha.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
Got it. Oh, that’s sweet.

Kelly Rourke:
It is. Now, I was gotten, if you will, on the third day, so that would be a lot of celebrating.

Ron Reigns:
Wow, it’s like half a week for you.

Kelly Rourke:
So we didn’t celebrate a Gotcha Day. Yeah, not even half a week. So it wasn’t something that we celebrated. But I think when you have a court finalization, if you have an adopted child that you adopted as a newborn, I think that that is a really neat, a Gotcha Day is a really neat thing.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And it’s something else to remember that very special time. Cool.

Kelly Rourke:
Correct. The other question that adopted children may or may not have is, they wonder if their birth mother regrets her decision for placing for adoption. Now, in my situation, my birth mother did regret her decision.

Ron Reigns:
Did she? Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
So, that was because she was just 15 turning 16, and she had less than three weeks’ notice that she was officially going to have a baby.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
She really didn’t have time to process what was happening. She was in shock. She didn’t understand really what adoption was. I mean, back in the ’70s, that wasn’t something that was an everyday conversation. There weren’t celebrities openly adopting. It wasn’t something that was talked about as it is today, and there was no aftercare whatsoever.

Ron Reigns:
And now, thanks to her, there’s a huge program.

Kelly Rourke:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
That’s kind of neat, the Donna K. Evans Foundation.

Kelly Rourke:
Right. So, where I think it needs to be understood is those birth mothers that have adoption regrets, I feel did not receive the attention care during their pregnancy, the preparation and then the aftercare. They’re the ones that didn’t receive counseling. She received no counseling. She did not and was not allowed to even see me after I was born. She was not allowed to say goodbye. She didn’t have closure. She didn’t have the opportunity to hold me, kiss me, nothing.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
And I’m sure and I’m speaking for her but in her mind, later on, she probably wondered, did that really even happen? Like what occurred? She had the baby. She had a baby; she left the hospital. A couple days later she went to the courtroom. She said her mother waited in the car. She walked up the court stairs and went in front of the judge and said she wanted to do the adoption. And she came back down the stairs and got in the car and went back to school and then dropped out a few days later, a few weeks later I think it was. And so, it wasn’t something that a 16-year-old in 10th grade could comprehend.

Ron Reigns:
Well, even in life in general, I think back of my first marriage and it truly seems like another lifetime. It doesn’t even really feel real. So, especially for something that really extended maybe four weeks of her life and changed that four weeks. I mean, I was married for seven years, and I hardly remember it. You know?

Kelly Rourke:
I do, I understand.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke:
I think that’s a really good example. So, I think when she went on to have … After she dropped out of school, she went back to West Virginia, because I was born in Columbus, Ohio, so she went back to West Virginia, and she got pregnant pretty quickly, with my younger brother, who she then had on her 18th birthday, literally, they share a birthday.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, that’s kind of sweet.

Kelly Rourke:
And it was her life then moved on. She got married and then had my youngest brother a few years later. I think, in my opinion, adopted children want to know that their biological mother is happy and at peace and has joy in her life, especially when they’re in a happy and healthy and safe and loving home. There is even if it is not something that is an actual effect, there is that reciprocal relationship in their mind.

Kelly Rourke:
Everybody wants the best. They want happiness and joy. And as an adopted child, I did want that. Now, I will tell you where we’re talking about dreams of grandeur, when I was 15, I was absolutely convinced upon my 16th birthday, my birth mother was going to show up out of the blue with a car.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke:
And that did not happen.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, Princess Kelly didn’t get her car or two.

Kelly Rourke:
Or carriage with horses.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
No, didn’t happen.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, well, I’m kind of sorry for you. But you made it out okay.

Kelly Rourke:
I did.

Ron Reigns:
You did all right.

Kelly Rourke:
I made it out just fine.

Ron Reigns:
Good for you.

Kelly Rourke:
I did. Adopted children, like everybody else, want to feel a sense of belonging. They want a connection. We talked about in a previous podcast about how nobody wants to be singled out or feel different. And adoptive families can really instill that sense of belonging, and they can do that through finding connections outside of biological connections with their adopted child. They can share hobbies, they can share preferences, they can share lots of things.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
That are not just we both have blue eyes, or we both have a shorter second toe or we both have blond hair or what have you.

Ron Reigns:
A proclivity to eat chocolate, whatever.

Kelly Rourke:
Absolutely, absolutely.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. I got you.

Kelly Rourke:
When I am an exceedingly picky eater, I mean, exceedingly picky eater. And my biological brother, that was one thing that both my brothers and I found was really fun is finding our likes and dislikes and what was the same and what was different. They’re both exceedingly picky as well.

Ron Reigns:
Really? Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
And so was my mother, to the point of people tease me and laugh when I go out to eat because I am so picky.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
One of my brothers said yeah, I don’t eat anything that ends in -ese. So no Chinese, no Japanese. Now, I do.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, I see. Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
I do. I do like those foods, but I don’t like seafood. I don’t like pork. I don’t like to eat meat off of a bone. I could go on for probably an hour.

Ron Reigns:
Right?

Kelly Rourke:
And they’re the same.

Ron Reigns:
What do you mean they’re the same?

Kelly Rourke:
They won’t eat anything like that either.

Ron Reigns:
The same foods though.

Kelly Rourke:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Because I think back with my own family, like my brother, especially when we were growing up, he’s kind of changed since, but he didn’t like eggs. I don’t know anybody who doesn’t like eggs, but that’s fine. That was his thing. I don’t like onions or tomatoes. Another sister, what was it? We all have different ones.

Kelly Rourke:
Oh no, we were all the same.

Ron Reigns:
We were all picky, but it was all different. Maybe we don’t have the same parents. I’m just kidding.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah. We were all pretty much the same.

Ron Reigns:
Wow, that’s interesting. Except for the -ese thing.

Kelly Rourke:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
That’s the only thing that’s different for you.

Kelly Rourke:
Right. And that made me laugh.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, that is funny.

Kelly Rourke:
And that may have been lack of exposure to those ethnic foods.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, that makes sense. Because, I mean, you grew up in the San Diego area, so you had a lot more of that.

Kelly Rourke:
Right. So a funny story about him. Sure. When he came out to visit me, I took him to one of those restaurants where it was a Japanese restaurant and they cook at the table.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, yeah, the …

Kelly Rourke:
I want to say Tamagotchi, but that’s a game.

Ron Reigns:
Benihana.

Kelly Rourke:
Like that, but it wasn’t a Benihana, but it was like a Benihana. I thought, “Oh my gosh, this is really nice. You’re going to love this.” I remember him sitting there and looking at the food and really just kind of pushing it around in his plate, and he’s watching-

Ron Reigns:
Trying to be polite, but still not trying to eat it.

Kelly Rourke:
Trying to be polite. And as he’s eating it, he’s kind of making faces, and I thought, “Do you not like this?” And he goes, “It’s very nice.”

Ron Reigns:
Oh.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah, it was just so funny to me because I thought, “Oh, he’s going to love this like, this is amazing.” Not so much.

Ron Reigns:
Just didn’t dig it. That’s funny.

Kelly Rourke:
No, he didn’t dig it. So those kinds of things were fun. We all like the same TV shows. Our favorite, ironically, was Little House on the Prairie and my brothers, they’re tough guys.

Ron Reigns:
Right, but they would tear up to Laura Ingalls.

Kelly Rourke:
Yes, that was to me just amazing. My youngest brother’s son, his name is Landon and it was …

Ron Reigns:
After Michael Landon, that makes sense. Cool.

Kelly Rourke:
And it was so funny that when my brother came out to visit, the other brother, he said, “You have all of the Little House on the Prairies on DVD.” And I said, “I do.” And he goes, “Oh, let’s watch all of them.”

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke:
So we spent probably 24 hours watching and both of us could recite along with each episode because we both-

Ron Reigns:
You’ve seen it that many times.

Kelly Rourke:
A hundred times.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke:
I would call him up on the phone, and he would be watching it on one of the channels.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
So that was really interesting to find that the-

Ron Reigns:
All these connections that aren’t just the big toe thing.

Kelly Rourke:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, I got you.

Kelly Rourke:
That was really neat. So that finding a sense of belonging would be a big thing. And we’ve talked about before when you’re filling out medical history forms. Again, kids don’t want to be singled out. And they don’t want to be different. Nobody does. So when you’re filling out a form, and as an adult, you have to put adopted, unknown for when they say family history, does anyone in your family have a history of heart disease or diabetes or cancer, and you’re writing unknown, unknown, unknown, unless you have an open adoption and you have that information.

Kelly Rourke:
When you are a child, obviously, you’re not filling out those forms. But then when you walk back into the room to meet the doctor, oftentimes the doctor will ask questions to the adoptive mom. And it normally comes out, “Oh, well, they’re adopted. We don’t know that where they’re adopted.” And again, to an adopted child, to me, it was in the sense saying, she’s different.

Ron Reigns:
Right. You don’t belong.

Kelly Rourke:
That was hard.

Ron Reigns:
I’m sure it was very difficult. A lot of that, like you said, has been alleviated by open adoption, semi open adoptions. Because you have more of that connection, a lot of these issues that we’ve talked about today.

Kelly Rourke:
Correct. And that’s so amazing, and that shows us as a society, how far we’ve come.

Ron Reigns:
I think it’s neat.

Kelly Rourke:
I do too. We talked about genetics and nationality. And one way to do that is if you don’t have an open adoption is the 23andMe. And maybe, at some point when your child is nearing adulthood, maybe that’s something if you choose to that you could look into because that would be a way to find out what nationality.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Kelly Rourke:
Another thing growing up as an adopted child, you’re really looking for a connection. You really want a biological connection. It is not uncommon for adopted children to want to have a biological child. I remember talking about it when I was a teenager. Now, I was not a teenage mom. But I remember thinking that I will then have a biological connection.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
When you don’t have a biological connection with an adoptive family, if there’s not a half sibling or a sibling where your adoptive family was able to adopt another child from your birth mother, there is a longing for one. There’s really no way to remedy that. But I think it’s something to acknowledge, and it’s not something to not talk about.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
You do want to look like somebody in your adoptive family. But that’s twofold as we’ve talked about, because when somebody comes up and says, “Wow, it’s hard to believe you’re adopted. You look just like your adoptive mom.” As a child, I remember thinking, I don’t know what to do with that.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke:
And even as an adult, I don’t know what to do with that. Okay. I don’t know what the response is supposed to be. Thank you?

Ron Reigns:
Thank you, right.

Kelly Rourke:
I mean, it’s not …

Ron Reigns:
Cool. Yeah. I wouldn’t know how to respond to that.

Kelly Rourke:
Another thing that you may not think about when you’re not adopted is what am I going to look like when I’m older?

Ron Reigns:
You don’t have that, especially with the closed adoption like you had. You don’t have a picture of somebody who you’re supposed to look like when you get older. I mean, me and my brother look like my dad.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah. What was really neat, in a weird way, is when my mother was in a coma, and I was in the hospital and I was sitting with her and the nurses would come in and out of the room. And they kept asking me her age because she really does look … She looked a lot younger than she was.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
When they’re pointing this out, I remember looking at her face, and thinking, wow, they’re right. I’m looking for wrinkles, and I’m really not seeing any.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke:
And then I’m looking at the roots of her hair and confession, I do get gray hairs. So she has roots because she was dyeing her hair. She had no gray hair.

Ron Reigns:
Really?

Kelly Rourke:
None. So now I’m like kind of picking through her hair trying to find one because now I’m thinking …

Ron Reigns:
How come I have? What’s going on here?

Kelly Rourke:
What happened?

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
We’re 16 years apart.

Ron Reigns:
Skipped a generation.

Kelly Rourke:
We’re 16 years apart here, like what …

Ron Reigns:
That’s hilarious.

Kelly Rourke:
It really kind of is, yeah. I thought, okay, that’s not fair. So then my birth mother and I did have a talk. She listened very nicely because she was in the coma. And I just talked, and I asked her-

Ron Reigns:
She didn’t interrupt like I do all the time. Got it.

Kelly Rourke:
No, she didn’t interrupt. She didn’t disagree. That wasn’t fair. She had no gray hair. She had none, and it wasn’t like she had just dyed it, like I said, her roots had grown out. So when I was combing her hair, I’m trying just to pacify myself and find some.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, please.

Kelly Rourke:
There wasn’t any. There wasn’t any.

Ron Reigns:
Perhaps your dad, your biological father.

Kelly Rourke:
Perhaps, because it wasn’t from her, because she does not have any. Adopted children, as we’ve spoken before, family trees are confusing. When people talk about exploring their ancestry that is very twofold, because you have grown up as an adult looking back as an adopted child with a family that you very much identify with. That is your mom and dad. When you are adopted, you love them. That is your mother and father.

Ron Reigns:
They raised you.

Kelly Rourke:
Correct. Biologically, it’s different. And when you’re doing a family tree, it’s very confusing. Do you do two? If you don’t do two, which one do you do? And even as an adult, I struggle with that. I struggle with well, I have two sets of families. Do I draw two trees and then put a connection between them?

Ron Reigns:
Because you’re now the connection, the connecting link.

Kelly Rourke:
I think that it would behoove some ancestry data person to really take this into consideration and develop something.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
Because it would alleviate a lot of that, what do I do?

Ron Reigns:
Uncertainty.

Kelly Rourke:
Family reunions, when you’re a child, and it’s not discussed are just fine. When you go to a family reunion and the adoption is talked about, it’s one more she’s different. She’s not an outcast, but she’s not really part of-

Ron Reigns:
Us.

Kelly Rourke:
Right. And an adopted child very much wants to be the us, very much. Adoptive mom and dads very much want their adopted child to be part of the us. Sometimes family members don’t use the right terms, the right lingo. And when you do adopt, educating those around you is really important, so that the child, the adopted child, and the adoptive parents can be the us, because that’s where they want to be.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I’m trying to put this in my head because I obviously didn’t grow up adopted. But I try and picture myself at a family reunion where, like you said, the adoptive parents are your parents, they chose you. But then say the cousins and the uncles and aunts, they didn’t really choose you, and you’re technically not part of their tree.

Kelly Rourke:
Biological tree.

Ron Reigns:
Biologically, and so I imagine that would feel awkward and uneasy especially to a child.

Kelly Rourke:
It’s a little confusing.

Ron Reigns:
So okay, interesting. These are things I never really thought about or put in my head.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
I appreciate you sharing.

Kelly Rourke:
That’s probably because these are things that people don’t talk about.

Ron Reigns:
And they should, especially when there is an adoption, and that way the rest of the family knows.

Kelly Rourke:
And when there’s a closed adoption, yes.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, this is what you should think about that.

Kelly Rourke:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
This person does belong, they are our tribe.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke:
When you are adopted as an adopted child, one of the biggest fears, and I will say that this is a common fear for adopted children is abandonment. Because they already feel in some sense, even though the biological mother lovingly placed in for adoption, without having the knowledge and the ability to understand really what that means and what that process looks like, there is some sense of fear of abandonment.

Kelly Rourke:
Is somebody going to leave again? Is somebody going to really still want me? Did I do something wrong? Are you always going to be there? What’s going to happen after I turn 18? Are you still there? And so, when you have an adopted child, the best thing in my opinion is constant reassurance. I’m going to be there for the rest of my life. And that is what they want to hear. You may think when you’re talking to your adopted child, you’re saying it too much, but you’re not. You’re not.

Ron Reigns:
You can never say it to an adopted child or just a child, yeah, you always need the reassurance.

Kelly Rourke:
I’m always going to be there. I’m always going to love you.

Ron Reigns:
Like you do with your kids.

Kelly Rourke:
Absolutely. You’re going to make mistakes, and I’m going to be there to help you get back up. And that is something that is so important, and I’ve been asked professionally, will my child maybe have a harder time taking them to kindergarten or preschool or dropping them off at college? And the answer is yes. In a lot of situations, yes. That’s not to say for sure it’s going to be every child, but it is a sense of separation, and that is hard on an adopted child.

Kelly Rourke:
When you are told about your birth family, as an adopted child, I know that I personally, as I’ve said before, soaked everything in, the three things that I know, I soaked everything in. And that was just unreal. Now, my adoptive mother shared something with me that I didn’t know, until I started looking for my birth mother. I was adopted through an attorney. It wasn’t through an agency at that time, it was through an attorney. She had been sending him pictures of me every Christmas.

Ron Reigns:
Really?

Kelly Rourke:
And I never knew that. And when she disclosed this to me, she gave me his name, and he was still alive, and I reached out to him. And ironically, he had business in Phoenix, about a week to two weeks later.

Ron Reigns:
Really?

Kelly Rourke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), and he flew out and asked to meet me. And so of course, I jumped at the opportunity and met him, and he shared with me what he remembered. Back then, they didn’t keep files like they keep now. But it was the first opportunity I had had because I hadn’t found her yet to learn more.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
I remember thinking, I’m not going to forget ever a word that you have said. And of course, he wanted to focus on what an amazing childhood I had and everything else. And I did. And I wanted to know everything that he … I wanted to know everything.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, give me details.

Kelly Rourke:
Right. And so that was very, very interesting. And actually, it was a situation where he actually wasn’t even an adoption attorney. He was, I guess, colleagues in some aspect with the family doctor that my mother had gone to when she found out she was pregnant, and had contacted this attorney to do the adoption, kind of neat.

Ron Reigns:
That’s very neat.

Kelly Rourke:
Yeah. In all aspects, I believe adopted children can thrive in adoptive homes, they can be loved and feel secure and feel safe. And yet they’re still going to have those thoughts and feelings about adoption. Not every child and not every thought and feeling we described. But those are common thoughts and feelings.

Ron Reigns:
And not everybody is severe as others. It’s always to degrees.

Kelly Rourke:
It will depend on the situation.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke:
And those things don’t negate what an amazing job the adoptive family is doing. That’s just part of adoption. I would really like to stress to adoptive families just because your child has questions, or they have fears or they have concerns, that doesn’t mean you’re not doing amazing.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke:
Again, it’s just part of adoption.

Ron Reigns:
If you’re a birth mother, adoptive family member, or adopted child or just a listener to the podcast and you’re facing depression, grief or anxiety, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is available 24 hours a day at 1-800-273-8255, that’s 1-800-273-TALK.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and the You Before Me campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Dunno as our theme song.

Ron Reigns:
You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com, and you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast or adoption in general at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. Next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, we’ll be discussing adoption disruption and what happens to a birth mother when she chooses not to place her baby for adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.

Ron :
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, with Kelly Rourke-Carry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you didn’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans foundation and creator of the You Before Me-campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in Family Studies and Human Development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007 I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron :
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly:
Continuing in our series on life and loss and grief and adoption, brings us to the adoptive families.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
We may not think about adoptive families grieving, or suffering grief or loss because they are the benefactors of adoption.

Ron :
Right-

Kelly:
They are the ones who got the baby.

Ron :
… you just think they’re the one who got the baby.

Kelly:
Right.

Ron :
They’re happy, everything’s perfect.

Kelly:
And that’s what we strive for.

Ron :
Right.

Kelly:
But sometimes there’s bumps in the road and as Joseph Campbell said, “We must be willing to let go of the life we had planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us.”

Ron :
Probably pretty good advice for anybody.

Kelly:
For anybody.

Ron :
Yeah.

Kelly:
I agree. I want to start with a story. I love telling stories about our adoptive families and our birth moms and situations that we see, because I think we can learn from them. I think we can learn and they’re relatable. And I think for our listeners, being able to visualize some of the things that we see will help them understand and ingest what we’re saying a little bit easier.

Ron :
Definitely.

Kelly:
We had a family that didn’t have any other children and they were adopting twins.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
The birth mother was in her room. She was getting ready to be discharged. The adoptive mother was standing at the nurse’s station, signing some papers, getting the babies’ shot records. Both of the car seats were next to her. She had set them down next to her. The babies’ in the car seats, going from zero to twins, I mean-

Ron :
Wow.

Kelly:
… baptism by fire here. And I was standing next to her and the adoptive mother put both arms on the counter and rested her forehead on the edge and started to cry. And I asked her what was wrong, and she said, “I feel like I’m stealing this lady’s babies.” And I asked her why she felt that way and she said, “This is the best moment for me. I’m walking out of the hospital with two beautiful babies. She’s still in her room. She’s crying because she already said goodbye. And I’m leaving with her children-

Ron :
With this blessing.

Kelly:
… And I just feel like I’m doing something wrong.” And in my mind, I thought the compassion that this woman has. And the love that she has for the birth mother is so commendable.

Ron :
Yeah.

Kelly:
What I suggested she do, was she left the babies with me at the nurse’s station. She walked back into the birth mother’s hotel room, sat on her bed and hugged her, and they cried together. It was one of those moments where everything was right. She thanked the birth mother again, gave her a kiss on the forehead and walked back out and picked up the babies and her husband had brought the car around. So the nurses and I and the adopted mother walked her and her new babies out to the car. It was a moment that I will never forget.

Ron :
Just gives you chills.

Kelly:
It gives, it gives you chills, and it makes you really appreciate that at that moment her own wants, thoughts and feelings weren’t the priority in her head.

Ron :
She cared about another person.

Kelly:
She cared about another person and put that person above herself. And that is what I try to convey when I’m working with birth mothers, is the love and the honor that these adoptive families are wanting to display and sometimes they just don’t know how.

Kelly:
Another situation that I want to share before we jump into life and loss and grief, is it’s not just the adoptive mothers. We often talk about adoptive mothers and birth mothers and we don’t always mention the birth fathers or the adoptive fathers and there are going to be special podcasts that I think we dedicate just to those individuals.

Kelly:
But in this circumstance there’s a story that I want to share about an adoptive father.

Ron :
Please do.

Kelly:
We had an adoptive family that had had a disrupted adoption with us prior. A birth mother had changed her mind prior to placing the baby for adoption and that was very difficult for them. They came back into our agency and they went through the adoption process again and they had a successful placement.

Kelly:
When we were leaving the hospital with the adoptive family, the birth mother said goodbye in her room and the adoptive mother was in a wheelchair with the baby in her lap. Because that’s how this hospital’s protocol was. They wanted the baby in the wheelchair with the adoptive mother. And as we’re walking down the hallway to exit the hospital, the adoptive father put both hands on the wall and started to sob and I mean sob-

Ron :
Uncontrollably.

Kelly:
Uncontrollably.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
We all stopped and asked him if he was okay and it was just this overwhelming sense of emotions. He was crying for the the baby that wasn’t meant to be before this baby. He was crying out of pure joy that he is now a father. He was crying for the loss that the birth mother had to sacrifice for him to be able to be where he is in that moment. And it was so brave in my mind on his part that he accepted those feelings and released them.

Ron :
Wow.

Kelly:
And I think that that is again, something that I’ll never forget. Because not all adoptive parents adopt because they cannot biologically have children, loss and grief are not going to be the same across the board for adoptive families. In my opinion, loss and grief are going to weigh differently depending on the reason that an adoptive family would choose an adoptive plan. Letting go of a dream of being able to bear your own biological children is the death of a dream.

Ron :
That makes sense.

Kelly:
When you have death, it often is accompanied by grief. In my opinion, it’s very important to resolve the issues of grief in relation to adoption prior to beginning an adoption plan for an adoptive family.

Kelly:
For instance, if you have experienced unsuccessful attempts and infertility, those are some unresolved issues, not only medically but mentally. It is important for adopted parents to really make sure that they have come to peace and gone through the stages of grief with fertility before beginning an adoption plan because you don’t want to carry unresolved issues into a new entity. You want to start fresh.

Ron :
Right, because then you’re piling it on, on top of each other.

Kelly:
Correct. Another point is if you’ve had a disruption in a previous adoption or a failed adoption plan, again, it’s important that you resolve those issues. Whether it be counseling or time, whatever you need to do to heal. That way you can start fresh.

Kelly:
It’s almost as if you enter an adoption plan with unresolved grief, whether it be from a failed adoption or failed fertility treatments, you’re cheating yourself, because you’re not giving yourself fully to what you’re about to-

Ron :
Embark on?

Kelly:
… embark on. Absolutely. Additionally, I don’t think it’s fair to the birth mother because she doesn’t have all of you.

Ron :
Your thoughts are divided. You’re in two different places.

Kelly:
Correct. With regards to the birth mother and your unresolved grief. Some examples where it may become an issue would include if your birth mother wants you to attend her doctor’s appointments.

Ron :
Right.

Kelly:
If you go to the perinatal appointments with her, and you really want to be the one that’s carrying the baby. And it’s hard for you to be there and support her through it, she may pick up on some of that.

Ron :
Right, you’re not focused on her and what she’s going through. You need to work your stuff out before that.

Kelly:
Correct. Sometimes also, those emotions that you have, can manifest into jealousy, resentment, anger. In that moment when you’re standing next to the birth mother who’s carrying your child, it’s really important to be present in that moment to give all of you because she’s giving all of her.

Ron :
Definitely.

Kelly:
You also may find yourself resenting your birth mother for being able to biologically conceive a baby.

Ron :
I could see that.

Kelly:
And that’s why it’s important to address those issues prior to starting an adoption plan. In the event of a disruption or failed adoption, you may find it hard to trust the second situation. And I’ve told adoptive families, “Don’t cheat yourself out of this. Don’t ride the roller coaster with your eyes closed, because you’re going to miss out. In everything, be present, be whole.”

Kelly:
And adoption is a beautiful journey. And yes, there are highs and lows, but only being there for part of it, is again cheating you, and it’s cheating the birth mother.

Ron :
You’re losing out.

Kelly:
And you don’t want to go into a second situation, overly questioning the birth mother’s motives like we talked about before about the adoptive mother who kept asking the birth mother, “Are you sure you’re going to do this? Are you sure you’re going to do this?” That’s adoption agency’s job. That’s our role.

Kelly:
I think that you need to focus on the beauty of adoption, and if that’s the choice that you’ve made, that adoption is the best scenario for your family, then make sure that you are mentally, physically ready to undergo this journey. If you’re going to go hike Mount Everest, you’re going to plan for it. You’re going to financially make sure that you have enough money to cover the entire trip. You’re going to pack your bag and your backpack with everything that you could possibly need. In adoption, it’s very similar. You have to mentally and physically prepare yourself. You need to make sure you have all of the tools and the coping mechanisms that you’re going to need prior to beginning.

Kelly:
Adoption may not have been your first choice. You may have wanted to bear your own children. You may have tried fertility treatments; they may not have worked. You may have exhausted every other measure to bring a biological child into the world on your own. And when that doesn’t happen, as we just stated, that can bring grief. Where we go back to the five stages of grief, is here. In my opinion, adoption should never be looked at as plan B. Adoption should be looked at as a journey. If your end goal is becoming a mother and a father, then adoption is just part of your journey.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
It shouldn’t be looked at as a second resort or a default. It should be looked at as an option that you’re trying. Just like you tried fertility, just like you tried biologically without fertility treatments. Life does afford us opportunities and adoption is an opportunity. So, prior to the starting the adoption process, again, please make sure that you address any unresolved fertility issues so that your adoption journey isn’t impacted by them.

Kelly:
Respect the fear of the unknown. In doing that, understand that not everybody is going to have a magical, beautiful, perfect non-bumpy flat ride through their adoption journey, and that doesn’t mean that your adoption journey is going to mimic theirs. So if you had a friend that had a negative journey, that doesn’t mean that yours is going to take on that same shape.

Kelly:
The other thing that I’ve heard from adoptive families is by adopting, it’s going to let family and friends know that biologically they’re not able to conceive. With fertility treatments, you don’t necessarily tell family and friends that you’re undergoing them. Adoption if you choose to tell family and friends that you’re adopting because you’re unable to have children, sometimes adoptive mothers and fathers will feel that it makes them less than. That there’s something wrong with them as to why they can’t have children. And I’m here to reassure all of our listeners, everybody feels the same way.

Ron :
They have a lot of the same fears and trepidation.

Kelly:
Absolutely, and it doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong. It’s just a different journey that you’re going to be taking. Anxiety over what a future adoption can hold in regards to your present family can also bring fear. When an adoptive family grieves, whether it be because they have unresolved fertility issues, they are struggling with the fact that they have to talk to their family and friends about their upcoming adoption journey rather than a reproductive journey, they too may enter the Babbler-Ross stages of grief. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

Kelly:
Somebody who has no experience in the adoption realm and doesn’t understand the emotions or the process or what the journey entails, may not understand what an adoptive family is going through. That being the case, an adoptive mother or father may struggle with letting somebody know that they’re having a hard time.

Ron :
Who did they talk to and how does somebody that hasn’t been through it associate with them?

Kelly:
Correct.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
50 years ago we didn’t have the resources that we have now. We didn’t have the knowledge that we have now. Because we have both the resources and the knowledge, there’s so much help out there. The fear 50 years ago is still very similar to the fear today for adoptive families, that after they bring the baby home, if they’re not bonding immediately with the baby, that there’s something wrong with them themselves.

Ron :
Right.

Kelly:
And again, that’s normal. Nobody said that you have a time period in the first two days that you have to bond with the baby. This is a new experience, especially if you’re a first-time mom.

Kelly:
For adoptive mothers when you bring the baby home, things that can trigger grief could be the fact that your life has changed forever. Maybe your family members are not reacting to the new baby as you had anticipated that they would, maybe the adoption consents have not been signed depending on your state’s laws and you have such fear that the birth mother will not execute those consents. Or maybe just the simple idea that this baby is 100% dependent upon you.

Ron :
Right.

Kelly:
And you are responsible for this baby.

Ron :
And that’s not exclusive to adoptive parents. I mean new mothers face that all the time.

Kelly:
Oh, absolutely. And that is a really good point because a lot of the feelings that adoptive mothers and fathers feel are very, very parallel to what a first time mother or a mother may feel bringing home a baby.

Ron :
Certainly.

Kelly:
Another factor that could trigger grief is maybe you’re resentful that you couldn’t give birth to your own biological child. And even though you’re adopting this beautiful baby, but maybe the baby doesn’t look like you. Maybe the baby doesn’t look like your family. Maybe you really thought once you saw the baby you were going to instantly fall in love and bond. And you’re looking at this baby that is crying every hour and is eating and pooping and not sleeping and you’re constantly caring for this child and you’re feeling that maybe the baby doesn’t like you and it’s hard.

Ron :
It’s a barrage of emotion and thought coming at you.

Kelly:
Yes. Maybe part of the grief is the fear of one day when the child is older, you’re going to hear this statement. “You’re not my real mom. You’re not my real dad,” or the fear that you’re out in public and somebody may ask if those are your real children. I’m here to say, as an adopted child, when you’re out in public or whether you’re in your own home and somebody says to you, “Are those your real children?”

Ron :
Just, why does it even matter?

Kelly:
Regardless of whether they’re adopted or not, they are your real children. Resources for adoptive parents, as we stated, are much more accessible-

Ron :
Than they were 50 years ago for instance?

Kelly:
One practice that hasn’t changed is post-placement visits and reports. And those are done incrementally depending on if the baby has special needs, if the baby does not have special needs. And they’re done with newborn adoptions until the adoption is finalized. And it’s where a social worker will come into your home and see how things are going. These can bring a sense of fear and grief in the sense that it’s a reminder that this was not a biological child, that this is one more step that has to be done in the adoption plan.

Kelly:
These visits are to be helpful for the adoptive family. They are to provide resources if they’re needed. They are not there to judge an adoptive family. They’re not there to take the baby away. They’re not there to see how clean your kitchen is, or to make you feel like you’re not doing something right. The social workers there to help make sure that people are bonding, that everybody is acclimating well, and if they’re not, they’re there to provide resources and interventions so that that can happen. That is the goal of those.

Ron :
But I imagine in a lot of adoptive parents minds that’s like, “Okay, the man is coming to watch me and judge me,” and you know, I would imagine a lot of those thoughts are somewhere deep in their mind. Even though they know it’s supposed to be just to help. And it would be like, “Oh my, my house, did I clean the toilet?”

Kelly:
Agreed. But that’s not the case.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
So social workers can recommend some coping skills. They can recommend literature for reading, counseling, parenting classes. The goal is to help you continue your adoption journey.

Ron :
Certainly.

Kelly:
There has been some research done that adoptive mothers can experience something similar to Postpartum Depression after adopting a newborn baby. There is a book called Post-adoption Blues by Karen J. Coli, PhD and John R. Thompson, MD. This book is phenomenal in the sense that it describes first and foremost what happens, why, how it is similar to Postpartum, how you’re going to experience very parallel emotions and what you can do. And again, this book will give you coping mechanisms and teach you triggers and help you work through those scenarios.

Kelly:
Another thing that is really important when you’re reading literature and trying to help yourself so that you can get through the stages of grief, is understanding that a lot of what you’re going through is very, very normal. A lot of adoptive families experience the same things. It’s not talked about, because people fear, judgment and embarrassment. And that is one of the goals of these podcasts, are to bring to light what hasn’t been brought before. If you are an adoptive mother or an adoptive father, and you’re struggling after having a baby placed with you, although it may be hard to admit that you need to help for fear, rejection of what people might think, feel, or say, don’t let that stop you and getting the help that you need.

Ron :
If you’re a birth mother, adoptive family member, adopted child or just a listener to the podcast and you’re facing depression, grief, or anxiety, the national suicide prevention lifeline is available 24 hours a day at 1-800-273-8255, that’s 1-800-273-TALK.

Ron :
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters And Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Carry, and edited by me, Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K. Evans-foundation, and the You Before Me-campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song “I Don’t Know” as our theme song, you can check out on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast or adoption in general at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112.

Ron :
Next time on Birth Mother Matters And Adoption, we’ll finish up our three part series on loss and grief and adoption for the adopted child. For Kelly Rourke-Carry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.

Ron Reigns:
Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, with Kelly Rourke-Scarry, and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R.:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development, and a master’s degree in education, with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly R.:
Today, we are going to begin a three-part series on life and loss, grief, and adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, and we’re attacking this from each angle of the adoption triad. Is that correct?

Kelly R.:
That is correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
What we’re going to do is break it into three segments. We’re going to start with the birth mother, we’re going to move on to the adoptive mother and adoptive father, and we’re going to end with the adopted child.

Ron Reigns:
All right.

Kelly R.:
So, today we’re going to address the birth mother.

Ron Reigns:
Let’s do it.

Kelly R.:
Why is there grief in adoption? There’s grief because adoption is a loss for a birth mother. There’s no other way to describe it. It is a loss. It is also a loss for the adopted child in some aspect. At some point in that child’s life, most adopted children will experience a time where they’re questioning, “Why was I placed for adoption? What happened? Who’s my birth mother? Is she somebody famous? Have I ever met her before?” And those questions usually come from someone who’s in a closed adoption.

Kelly R.:
If a child is in an open adoption, there still may be grief. There may be grief as to, “What would my life have looked like if I would have remained with my birth mother? Would I have more siblings? Would I have less siblings? Would I go to the same school?” There’s all sorts of questions that could go through a child’s head.

Kelly R.:
Adoption sometimes is the loss of a dream for an adoptive mother and father. They may have wanted to become parents through their own reproductive efforts and may have been unable to. People adopt for all sorts of reasons. Some adoptive families adopt because biologically, they’re unable to have a child. Sometimes they try fertility treatments, and after so many failed fertility treatments, they then choose adoption. Other families adopt because it’s on their heart. They feel called to adopt.

Ron Reigns:
They know there’s a need out there.

Kelly R.:
They know there’s a need. There’s lots of different reasons. When we do our three-part series, we’re going to focus on the adoptive families that are adopting more because they’re unable to biologically have a child.

Ron Reigns:
That makes sense.

Kelly R.:
When you step back and you look at a birth mother, and the amazing things that she’s doing, she’s carrying the life of a child with the intent on placing the baby for adoption. She’s taking care of herself, to make sure that her baby is the healthiest that it can be, knowing that at the end of her pregnancy journey, she’s going to be handing the baby to an adoptive family. That’s heroic in my mind.

Ron Reigns:
And it’s a heck of an ordeal, all the way through.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Ron Reigns:
Mentally, what you’re thinking of the whole time.

Kelly R.:
Mentally, physically, emotionally. Everything from the weight gain, to feeling the baby kick inside, to not being able to sleep at night, going to the bathroom every 15 minutes, labor and delivery in and of itself. And I think that it’s important that we look at the grief and loss that she’s experiencing, because it will increase not only our appreciation of her, it will help, as a society, us really understand how we can support her in the role of a birth mother.

Kelly R.:
We’ve always talked in these podcasts about adoption being the third option, and I think that if we look at the grief and loss a birth mother experiences, by doing that we can recognize and address the issues, and the feelings, and emotions that she’s going through. When I start talking about adoption to either adoptive families, or birth mothers, or adoption workers if we’re doing training sessions, the best starting spot, or the first step, is to understand that the best day of a woman’s life is the worst day of another’s.

Ron Reigns:
Wow. Powerful.

Kelly R.:
And we all have to remember that one dream has to die so another can be born. And that’s really a summarization of what adoption is.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, and put very eloquently. Thank you.

Kelly R.:
Thank you. I believe that grief and loss is not a topic that adoption professionals like to address on a regular basis, because it’s the dark side of adoption. It’s the part that isn’t celebrated. It’s the part that makes uncomfortable, and they don’t want to go there.

Ron Reigns:
This is something you might or very well will experience, so you need to be honest with them, as well. Right.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely.

Ron Reigns:
But you also want to say, “Hey, but it’s rewarding.”

Kelly R.:
You can’t have a high without a low.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And this is the low, and so today, we’re going low. We’re going to talk about grief and loss, and we’re going to talk about what is not spoken about as often as I feel that it should be amongst adoption professionals, in educating everybody in the triad. The adoptive parents, the birth mother, and the adopted child at some point. Every member of the adoption triad will most likely experience grief and loss at some point, and that is the whole reason for this three-part series. We want to make this a focus point, so that we can reference it in the future, and those listeners that are out there that can identify with grief, and loss, hopefully we can provide you with some avenues to get help.

Kelly R.:
We can help normalize those feelings. We can reassure you that you’re not alone, that there is a light at the end of your tunnel. Watch for the rainbow, because it’s going to come.

Ron Reigns:
And help ourselves and them understand grief and loss as well, in that instead of not addressing it when you see it in others, because you don’t recognize it, maybe you can help somebody else that’s going through it.

Kelly R.:
A common model that is used amongst us social workers is Kubler-Ross’s stages of grief. There are five stages. The first is denial. The second is anger. The third is bargaining. The fourth is depression. And the fifth is acceptance. So, because we’re talking about birth mothers today, we’re going to go through and really look at what those stages present.

Ron Reigns:
And how we’re going to identify them.

Kelly R.:
Correct. One thing when you’re looking at the Kubler-Ross stages of grief, it’s really important to understand that not everybody will go through these five stages sequentially. Some may go through one through five. Some may go one, three, two, five, four. You can also experience the stages more than once, and you may cycle through them, and then come back and experience a stage again and again.

Ron Reigns:
So, it’s not set in stone.

Kelly R.:
And not everybody will experience every stage in grief.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, so you could skip. You could just have, say three of them.

Kelly R.:
You could skip. It’s not the commonality. Let’s put it that way.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
David Kessler is an author, who co-authored two books with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, the developer of the Kubler-Ross five stages of grief.

Ron Reigns:
That we just talked about.

Kelly R.:
Correct. He came up with a sixth stage, and he’s got a book coming out that I’m very excited to read called The Sixth Stage: Finding Meaning. I think that… and not having read the book, I’m speculating. This may be very applicable for adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Definitely.

Kelly R.:
Finding meaning. And so I’m very excited for this book to come out. I think it’s supposed to come out November of this year.

Ron Reigns:
We will be looking forward to that.

Kelly R.:
We will be. Birth mothers experience grief throughout the pregnancy. It can be from the time they see the pregnancy test with the positive sign, all the way through after the point the baby has been placed for adoption. That doesn’t mean that birth mothers will experience grief the whole time. It means that they can. In knowing that, as social workers, as a society, as an adoption community, I think it’s important to understand that you may not know when somebody’s experiencing grief, or loss, or they’re struggling. But if we can focus, and educate ourselves on the stages of grief for a birth mother, and we pick a timeframe where it’s very common for her to experience grief and loss, and we’re going to choose the labor and delivery time today to talk about, that will give us at least a perception of what she’s experiencing, and how we can help her. How we can recognize the signs, and we can jump in and say, “Hey, we got you. It’s going to be okay.”

Ron Reigns:
Right. Because everybody needs that, but especially somebody who’s going through something so dramatic in their life.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. Up until the time a birth mother delivers, she has created an adoption plan, she’s chosen in most circumstances an adoptive family, she’s worked with her case worker, she has experienced adoption counseling. We use an independent adoption counselor. We have immersed her in resources and explained the process. That doesn’t mean that she’s going to walk into the hospital, deliver the baby, and smile, and hand the baby to the adoptive family, and skip out of the hospital.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and everything’s just going to feel hunky-dory for her.

Kelly R.:
Right. That’s not the way that this works. When you’re doing adoption work, I tell social workers it’s going to be the best and the worst job you’ve ever had. It’s the best job when you are holding a birth mother’s hand, and helping her through the worst time in her life, and you’re able to watch her bounce back, and be there for her when she graduates from high school, or when she graduates from a cosmetology school.

Ron Reigns:
Gets a GED, or all these achievements.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. Celebrate her successes. That is amazing. In working with birth mothers, as an adoption worker, it takes training and time to be able to recognize the stage of grief that a birth mother may be in. Not everybody is going to present the same. For birth mothers, it’s important to understand, to talk to your adoption worker, to talk to counselors. Let people know how you’re feeling. Sometimes a birth mother will call me up and say, “I’m really struggling today, and I’m nervous, and is this normal? Is this okay?” And I reassure her it’s very normal.

Kelly R.:
You’re going to have really days as you’re going through your adoption journey, and you’re going to have really bad days. Celebrate the highs and let us support you during the lows. Know that there is going to be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Ron Reigns:
Now, as adoption workers, do you try and help them understand these feelings, like when they start getting that anxiety, and saying, “Okay, keep an eye out for this, and all me.”

Kelly R.:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Or, “This is kind of how you need to attack that situation.” Right?

Kelly R.:
Yes. It’s always easier on the front end to explain what somebody may or may not go through, rather than to try to explain to them when they’re in the middle of it.

Ron Reigns:
Or what just happened.

Kelly R.:
Correct. When a birth mother goes into a hospital, there’s so many emotions that are going through her head. She’s so excited. She’s excited to be done being pregnant. She’s excited to see the baby if she’s choosing to do so. She’s excited to watch the adoptive family’s response when the baby’s born. She’s excited to know this is the beginning of the end of the adoption journey, and she’s going to be able to put this behind and move on with her life. There’s so many emotions. She’s nervous, she’s scared, she’s worried about how much pain she’s going to be in. There’s so many things that are going on in her head, in addition to the hormones that are starting to increase, and the epinephrine, and everything that’s going on inside of her.

Kelly R.:
And I believe that when an adoptive family is supportive through the highs, through the lows, and remains solid, that is the single best thing for a birth mother. When I look back at birth mothers that were wavering on their adoption choice, I can look back and say the families that didn’t panic, that didn’t go in and try to talk to the birth mother, and calm her down, and run around the hospital room like something was wrong, but just remained calm-

Ron Reigns:
Stable.

Kelly R.:
… and supportive, are the ones that were most successful.

Kelly R.:
There was a situation where we have a birth mother that was very stable throughout her pregnancy regarding her adoption plan. After she had the baby, she really struggled, and she was in the room with the baby. She asked the adoptive family if they would step outside of the room, because she wanted some alone time, which is not uncommon. So, the adoptive family said, “Absolutely. No problem.” And they went outside the door of her room and sat down, and a few hours had passed. They weren’t tapping on her door and asking her if they could come back in.

Ron Reigns:
You okay?

Kelly R.:
No. They weren’t sending the nurse in to check on her. Obviously, the nurses were coming in and out, because they were checking her vitals, and checking the baby’s vitals. Our workers were checking in with the adoptive family, because the birth mother, again, wanted to be alone with the baby. I think it was six to eight hours after the adoptive family had been asked to step out, where our worker had gone back and said, “Is there anything we can do for you? Do you want to go back to your hotel room? Do you want us to bring you anything?” And they looked at the worker and said, “We’re just fine.”

Ron Reigns:
We’re good.

Kelly R.:
We’re okay.

Ron Reigns:
We’re in for the long haul.

Kelly R.:
And there was no hesitation. They weren’t outside the room sobbing, making a scene. They were just going to wait for her, and they were going to show her their love for her by giving her what she needed. And what she needed was that time alone with her baby, without them standing over her. The worker was calling me and saying, “Yeah, I’m really nervous about this. It’s been a really long time that the birth mothers had the baby in the room with her.” And I asked about the adoptive family, and the worker said, “They’re incredible. They’re just sitting outside the room.”

Kelly R.:
And I asked if the birth mother knew that they were sitting outside the room, and she said that the birth mother was aware of it, yes. I get a call an hour later that the adoptive family had been invited back into the room. The birth mother had found peace, and that everything was just fine.

Ron Reigns:
Wow. She just had to go through her process. But I commend those adoptive parents for being so strong and stalwart to just sit there. Let her know, “Hey, we’re here for you, but we’re not going to impose, and we’re not going to freak out.”

Kelly R.:
That is the best thing that they could have done.

Ron Reigns:
That is amazing.

Kelly R.:
Had it been handled in a different way-

Ron Reigns:
Who knows?

Kelly R.:
A very different outcome may have occurred. And I can tell you another story where it backfired when an adoptive family did not respect the birth mother’s wishes. It was prior to the delivery. We had a birth mother that came to us and wanted to place her baby for adoption. There were no concerns with this birth mother on our behalf whatsoever, in terms of her intent on placing the baby for adoption. The adoptive mother was very, very anxious about the adoption. We do not allow either party, the adoptive parents or the birth mother, to know the last names or the addresses of where each other lives. And it’s to protect both parties.

Kelly R.:
That being said, the adoptive mother did some of her own investigation, ignored what we had stated to her and what our regulations were, and found where the birth mother was staying. She then started showing up at the birth mother’s apartment, and knocking on the door, and asking her if she was really going to place the baby for adoption. And the birth mother would say, “Yes, absolutely. I chose you. I chose an adoption plan. This is what I’m going to do.”

Kelly R.:
We, as an agency, called the adoptive mother and told her, “Cease and desist. Stop.”

Ron Reigns:
Cut this out.

Kelly R.:
This is not okay. The adoptive mother ignored us and continued.

Ron Reigns:
And continued.

Kelly R.:
The birth mother then called me directly and said, “I don’t want this family. I’m going to place my baby for adoption, but I need to pick somebody else.”

Ron Reigns:
But not to them.

Kelly R.:
So, we went back to the adoptive family and said, “We had told you that this was something that you can’t do. You cannot go and harass somebody and question their motives. Our responsibility is to vet a birth mother and help her with her adoption plan. You going behind our back, and harassing her, and confronting her, has now backfired, and now she has asked to choose another adoptive family. We have to abide by her wishes.” The adoptive mother said, “Well, that was because she wasn’t going to place anyway.”

Kelly R.:
Ironically, the birth mother-

Ron Reigns:
Did place.

Kelly R.:
… chose another family and placed.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Now tell me something, a lot of times these adoptive families will come back to you when there’s disruption, or if they just want another child, as well. Did that particular adoptive family come back to you and try and get another birth mother?

Kelly R.:
We actually terminated our agreement with that adoptive family, because we felt that she was not-

Ron Reigns:
Didn’t respect the process. Did not.

Kelly R.:
… able to respect our rules as an agency, and we felt that she very might disrespected the birth mother.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Going back to when a birth mother is going to deliver her baby, we’re going to start with the first stage of grief, which is denial. When they’re walking into the hospital, the adoption decision may manifest in denial, shock, numbness. Again, not every birth mother is going to experience these five stages of grief. We do have birth mothers that, during the adoption process, do not exhibit traits or verbally vocalize that they’re experiencing this. That’s not a commonality. Most birth mothers experience at least some of these stages.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I mean, this is a huge event in a life.

Kelly R.:
This is a huge event.

Ron Reigns:
You would expect that most go through some of this.

Kelly R.:
Correct. When they’re going into the hospital, and they deliver the baby, a flood of emotions comes over them. They are comprehending the fact they just delivered a baby. I know when I had all of my children, after I delivered, my first thought was, “It’s a baby.” You know it’s a baby inside of you. You know that… Everything just doesn’t line up. It’s really a baby. A real, live baby came out.

Ron Reigns:
This is materialized now. This is real.

Kelly R.:
Yes, this really happened. And it is a little shocking. I remember being shocked with all my children’s birth. You would think after the second or third time, by the fourth you’ve kind of got it. But no. No. I was still shocked every time I delivered a baby that an actual baby came out.

Ron Reigns:
It’s a baby! How did that happen? Right?

Kelly R.:
Right. Yeah. Yes, I had a car seat and everything else, but to actually put a baby in a car seat. I mean, this was… So, there is some element of shock. When a birth mother chooses to be handed her baby after delivery, I think that that’s beautiful. Some birth mothers opt not to do that, and that’s okay. Everybody knows their limitations. Birth mothers that have had previous children know the emotions that go along with labor and delivery. They know that immediate bonding moment when they place the baby on your chest for the first time. They know what they’re going to experience.

Kelly R.:
A first-time birth mother, who has never given birth before, doesn’t really know what to expect. She doesn’t have the foreknowledge of, “This is how you’re really going to feel. This is really what you’re going to experience.”

Ron Reigns:
Okay. People can tell you all day long what you’re going to feel, but until you’re feeling it-

Kelly R.:
But until you’re actually in that moment, you have no comprehension of how your heart is going to feel, what your mind is going to tell you. You’re going to really experience emotions and feelings that you have never, ever experienced before. That’s where a birth mother may enter some denial, in terms of the adoption plan. “I’m really going to place this baby for adoption that I just went through eight hours of labor with, I just delivered this baby, and now… how did I make an adoption plan? What was I thinking? What am I doing?” Everything becomes very almost confusing.

Kelly R.:
And that is where it is very important for adoptive families, adoption workers, to just, again, give her some space.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. Back off a little bit.

Kelly R.:
Back off a little bit.

Ron Reigns:
Let her go through the process.

Kelly R.:
And when an adoption case worker has a very close relationship with the birth mother, it is advantageous, actually, for her to step forward, rather than step back. If she has not developed this relationship, if we as an agency have not had as much time to work with this birth mother, then we don’t have that rapport with her. When you are in a stage of grief, and you are experiencing feelings that you’ve never experienced before, somebody that you trust, and care about, and have a relationship with, is somebody that you’re going to turn to.

Kelly R.:
If you really don’t know somebody, and you don’t feel safe, or comfortable, or trust them, them coming to you in that moment is not going to be helpful.

Ron Reigns:
Right. It’s going to bring more anxiety and make it worse.

Kelly R.:
Correct. The adoption plan at that point, after the baby has been delivered, and the adoptive family is at the hospital, it all starts to become real. And that’s when a birth mother may, and I’m not saying every birth mother, may struggle with denial. “I can’t believe I’m doing this. What is going on? What was I thinking?” Even the best prepared birth mothers, the ones that have had counseling, have family support, friend support, and have had nothing but a completely positive journey can still struggle at this moment.

Kelly R.:
And just because somebody is going through one of the stages of grief, doesn’t mean they’re not going to place the baby for adoption. It just means they’re struggling. And that’s what it needs to be looked at as. She’s in denial. She’s struggling. She’s having a hard time. That’s normal. Denial on the behalf of a birth mother may be viewed as a coping method. “How can this be happening? Am I really doing this?”

Kelly R.:
Then, the next stage is anger. After labor and delivery, the birth mother may want the adoptive family in the recovery room with her and the baby. She may not. She may cling to the adoptive family, and in turn, in a sense, adopt them herself. Kind of try them out, and see how they respond to her. When an adoptive family walks into a room with a baby and a birth mother for the first time, I always state to the adoptive family, “Look at the birth mother first. Ask her how she’s doing.”

Ron Reigns:
Focus on her.

Kelly R.:
Focus on her.

Ron Reigns:
This is a big moment for her, and she needs their support.

Kelly R.:
She really does. She is looking at the response of the adoptive family. Without coaching an adoptive family, we have had adoptive moms and adoptive dads run over to the bassinets, look at the baby, and focus on how beautiful the baby is, rather than acknowledge the very woman that just went through labor and delivery, and is choosing to place her baby with them.

Ron Reigns:
Right. She’s making this huge sacrifice, and all you’re looking at is the blessing. You got to look at the person that’s giving you this gracious gift.

Kelly R.:
Correct. Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. That makes sense.

Kelly R.:
She may be angry and may want to be alone with the baby. She may be angry at the world for the situation that she’s in. She may be angry at herself for the choices that she’s made, that have led her to a place where she feels it’s better to not parent her child. She may be angry at everybody and anybody.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly R.:
She also may be angry at the adoptive family, because they’re the ones who are going to get to baby home and raise the baby. And it’s not that she has a specific reason to be angry at them, or that they did something wrong. Anger may manifest as other emotions.

Ron Reigns:
Such as?

Kelly R.:
Irritability, panic, anxiety, despair, hopelessness, helplessness, loneliness, fear, fatigue. She may just sleep all day. She may not want any visitors. She may not want to eat. She may start snapping at everybody. When we’re working with a woman who is placing a baby for adoption, it’s really anything goes.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, so it’s not just going to manifest itself as we would expect, just rage, and yelling-

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
It can just be silence, or so many other different manifestations of it.

Kelly R.:
Correct. She could be short, she could be curt, she could be angry. She could be a birth mom that is lashing out at the nurses. She could be yelling at everybody, but that’s not always the case when somebody is in the anger stage.

Kelly R.:
Moving on, the bargaining stage. This is where birth mothers start to re-look at their adoption plan. “Well, maybe I could keep the baby. Maybe I could work with Child Protective Services.”

Ron Reigns:
If my parents were….

or if whatever. Right.

Kelly R.:
Right, if my parents would step in, or if I had a friend that could help step in, or maybe I could go to rehab, and then raise the baby. Or maybe my baby could go into Child Protective Services for the next seven years, while I finish my incarceration sentence. And that’s where all of the options are entering in their head, and they’re trying to wrap their brain around, “What do I need to do to not feel this sadness and this grief, and I can’t process this.”

Kelly R.:
It could just simply be that she wants to look at the post-adoption communication agreement, and maybe she just wants to add in another visit. Or maybe she wants to do a complete overhaul in her adoption plan, and have it look different than she wanted it to look before.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, so it’s not always an all or nothing type of bargain.

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
It’s not always, “Okay, I don’t need the adoptive family. I could do this.” It might just be, “Hey, give me an extra phone call every month.” Or something like that.

Kelly R.:
You could compare this to when you are fishing, and you cast a net as wide as you can, to see how many fish you can get, and when those fish come in, if you’re only looking for bass, and you throw back that are not the ones you’re looking for. So she, in the bargaining stage, may cast out, “Okay, would this work? Would this work? Would this work? Would this work?”

Ron Reigns:
A very wide net.

Kelly R.:
Right, and, “Why wouldn’t this work? And why couldn’t I do this?” And that’s where she is wrapping her brain around-

Ron Reigns:
The situation.

Kelly R.:
… what is reality and what is not.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
Next is the depression stage. This is where a birth mother will feel like the roof is collapsing in on her. You may see some of the same emotions that you see in other stages of grief. You may see them replicate in different stages. There may be numbness, there may be silence, there may be increased fatigue. She may be crying. She may just be tearful. She may be in the full-blown ugly cry, to where it’s gut-wrenching.

Kelly R.:
She may be having panic, and anxiety, and this accompanied with tears is hard. This is another stage that is very hard to watch somebody that you love or care about go through. The best thing that, as a social worker, you can do is to sit with her and just be there.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Again, be strong for her.

Kelly R.:
Be strong for her. Agreed.

Kelly R.:
The last stage, and the best stage, is the acceptance stage. And this is where the birth mother has come to terms that she’s made the right choice, that she’s going to be okay, that her baby is going to be okay, and that she’s made a fantastic choice on which family that she has chosen. She has found peace in her heart, and she feels supported by others. That’s really key in the acceptance stage, is to be able to have that feeling of, “My family is backing me now. My friends are supporting me.” This is where she will have the ability to look forward to letters, and pictures, and visits with her baby, and the adoptive family if she chooses an open adoption.

Kelly R.:
She can start focusing on herself, and what she’s going to do with her life. Whether it’s go back and get a GED if she doesn’t have one, or maybe it’s going on a trip, or going back to…

Ron Reigns:
Cali. Sorry.

Kelly R.:
This is where she gets to look at adoption and feel the hero that she really is. This stage may come and go. She may find acceptance, and then she may flip back to anger, and then she-

Ron Reigns:
Or depression.

Kelly R.:
Or depression.

Ron Reigns:
Whichever.

Kelly R.:
And again, she can continue the cycle for as long as her body and brain take to work through it.

Ron Reigns:
Completely get through all this.

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Very good.

Kelly R.:
When these things are happening, it is important for social workers, and hospital workers, to watch for signs of postpartum depression. Just because a birth mother is placing a baby for adoption does not mean she will not experience postpartum depression. Postpartum depression is very serious, and it is something that needs to be watched for with any woman that has delivered a baby.

Kelly R.:
There’s a book by Brooke Shields called Down Came the Rain. It is a book on postpartum depression. It is, in my opinion, one of the best books that has ever been written about postpartum depression, because of how real, raw, and honest Brooke Shields is in what she writes. She suffered with severe postpartum depression and is able to script it in such a way that women who may have had the same thoughts and feelings as she had can feel like they’re not alone.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And then also, for others who haven’t, can associate with it and understand-

Kelly R.:
They can understand the severity and the complexity of postpartum depression. And the warning signs. And those are really important things. When a birth mother is going through grief, and she is going through the five stages, healing and fulfillment is really important for her. For her to understand that grief is part of the adoption journey is key, because then she knows that she’s working through those stages of grief. She can embrace it. She can understand it. She can learn what the triggers are.

Kelly R.:
The triggers may be walking through Target and seeing baby car seats for sale. The trigger may be standing in line, and there’s a pregnant woman standing in front of her. The trigger may just be the name that she chose on someone’s folder or being called out at a doctor’s office. And if those triggers are able to be identified, then she can develop coping mechanisms so that she can address those triggers.

Ron Reigns:
Right. She can say, “Oh wait, I’m going through this right now, because I saw that couple with the baby down the street, and this is why I’m going through it. Okay.”

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
That makes total sense.

Kelly R.:
And once you have identified your triggers, and you’re able to develop coping mechanisms, then you’re going to be able to address and revisit those stages of grief at a much quicker pace. You’re not… You’re going to know that your body’s rhythm, and how your brain processes this. The other thing to remember is that grief is like an ocean. You have to learn how to ride the waves. Some are going to be really high, and they’re going to come at you really fast, and some are going to be low, and you’re going to learn how to ride them out.

Kelly R.:
So, grief takes on this… It’s almost like its own entity when it comes at you. And if you learn how to ride it, you’re going to be in a better position to deal with it.

Ron Reigns:
You’re going to be more successful.

Kelly R.:
One thing that is very helpful is counseling. Preferably one that has experience in adoption. Maybe the counselor that you worked with during your adoption journey, during your pregnancy, would be a very good option to spend a couple sessions with that person afterwards. Also, joining a birth mother support group. I know that we have one at the Donna K. Evans Foundation, where women can come in with a licensed counselor there present, and they’re able to talk about everything from their grief, to showing pictures of their baby, to discussing what they’re doing with the rest of their life.

Kelly R.:
It’s really important also to take care of yourself. When you are experiencing depression, it is very easy to not want to get out of bed, and not want to take a shower, and not move, and sleep, and shut the world out.

Ron Reigns:
Some of those things are hard enough for me as it is, but-

Kelly R.:
Well, you need to get out of bed.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
You need to take a shower.

Ron Reigns:
It’s a good start.

Kelly R.:
You need to walk. Go get the mail. Sometimes that, in and of itself, is an accomplishment. Taking a step is just a precursor to taking another one.

Ron Reigns:
There you go.

Kelly R.:
Making sure that you are taking care of yourself will slowly but surely exit you out of the depression stage. When you’re in a depression, it may seem easier to isolate yourself, but it’s the worst thing that you can do. The best thing that you can do is surround yourself with people who love and care about you, who understand what you’re going through, who respect your adoption choice, and can be there for you whether you’re having a good day or a bad day.

Kelly R.:
Try to engage in normal activities that previously have brought you joy. If it’s reading a book, or going to the movies, or going shopping, or taking your other kids to the park. Maybe it is playing solitaire on the computer. Anything. Anything that brought you joy.

Ron Reigns:
If it’s something that brings you happiness.

Kelly R.:
Do something.

Ron Reigns:
Good.

Kelly R.:
Because then you’re not dwelling on what’s bringing you sadness. Lastly, find your community. The birth mother community is really a community of birth mothers that have walked the same walk that you, the birth mother, has. Birds of a feather flock together. These are your people. This is your tribe. Birth mothers have told me over, and over, and over again, whether they’re in the office at the agency speaking to me, whether it’s conferences I’ve attended where birth mothers are the keynote speakers, birth mothers want to hear from other birth mothers. Until you have walked the birth mother walk, the majority of them don’t feel that you can truly understand what they’re experiencing.

Ron Reigns:
And belong to that tribe.

Kelly R.:
And belong to that tribe. A birth mother will prefer to speak to another birth mother over another person when they’re talking about the grief that they’re going through.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I would imagine even more so than say a family member, a sister, or mom, right?

Kelly R.:
Correct, because the birth mother who is in a mentorship position can give them hope that somebody who hasn’t walked the birth mother walk can give them. Somebody who has not had the adoption experience of placing a baby for adoption does not understand when the sun is going to rise. A birth mother that has done this, and has experienced this, and can relate to the lows, and the five stages of grief that a birth mother goes through, is going to have the ability to say, “I did this, I know how it feels, and this is when it’s going to better.” Those are priceless things to say to somebody who is in that spot.

Kelly R.:
As an adoption agency, we do everything we can to support our birth mothers. We understand that we, ourselves, are not birth mothers, but we do care. We do want to help. We can provide services. We do have opportunities for other birth mothers to connect with birth mothers who have placed for adoption through the after care program. And although there are stages of grief in adoption for a birth mother, there are so many amazing things, that grief is just one aspect of the journey.

Ron Reigns:
If you’re facing an unplanned pregnancy and considering adoption, a licensed adoption agency is your best option. Local licensed adoption agencies can meet with you face to face, hold your hand when needed, and can remain with you throughout your pregnancy. In addition, you can visit your case worker after placement. Building Arizona Families is a licensed adoption agency in Arizona that can walk with you every step of the way.

Ron Reigns:
We would love to hear from you and find out how we can help. You can call or text 24/7 at 623-695-4112, that’s 623-695-4112. Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry, and edited by Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and the You Before Me campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes, for letting us use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then. 

Ron:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Lindsey:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna Kay Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron:
“When there’s an elephant in the room, introduce him.” That’s a quote from Randy Pausch.

Kelly:
And that is applicable when you’re talking about adoption, because in adoption there are a lot of elephants in the room. There’s a herd.

Ron:
We have a herd of elephants right here in the room. Let’s introduce them, then.

Kelly:
So elephant number one, why adoptive parents are adopting.

Ron:
Why do they adopt?

Kelly:
Oftentimes, adoptive parents or prospective adoptive parents are asked by other members of their family or friends, coworkers, “Why are you adopting?” This is a really personal question. I don’t know that it’s appropriate to ask somebody why they’re choosing to adopt unless you have that type of a relationship with that person. The answers are usually one of the following: fertility issues, maybe their age or genetic risk factors for the baby, or maybe they just have a desire to adopt. Maybe they have religious reasons or organic reasons and it’s just on their heart. I don’t think asking somebody why they’re choosing to adopt is any different than asking somebody why they have the number of children that they have.

Ron:
It’s their business. Give me another elephant.

Kelly:
A birth father or birth fathers plural.

Ron:
Oh.

Kelly:
There’s the elephant or elephants.

Ron:
This happens.

Kelly:
This happens.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
Sometimes in an adoption situation, a birth mother may name a birth father as the potential father of her unborn child. Sometimes she may name one, two, three, four, five.

Ron:
Wow.

Kelly:
And we don’t judge. As an agency, we don’t judge.

Ron:
Certainly.

Kelly:
There is a rhyme and a reason for everything, and it’s hard for a birth mother to have to be open and forthcoming with where she’s been and who she’s been with and why situations occurred the way that they did. And as a society, I think we really need to respect the fact that this mother has chosen life and she’s chosen adoption. And rather than condemn her or make her feel bad-

Ron:
About her choices, about her lifestyle, and whatever it is, we need to celebrate what she’s doing for the child.

Kelly:
Regardless. Absolutely. She’s come to the finish line in her decision, and she’s reached it. She’s broken through the ribbon and she’s choosing adoption, and that’s what we need to celebrate, not A, B, C, and D, which happened prior.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
We need to focus on where she is today and meet her where she is today, rather than question her as to where she was yesterday. So elephant number three. Sometimes there is a birth father that may or may not be the same person as the legal father.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
So if you remember in previous podcasts, we talked about legal fathers. A legal father is the husband of the birth mother. When there is a legal father that is the birth father, he too will sign consents for adoption. He will be part of the adoption process, at least in a minimal case of signing consents as the birth mother will after the baby is born. If the birth mother is married and he’s not the legal father, there are other avenues to pursue as well.

Kelly:
I had one situation … This is kind of a funny story … where the birth mother was sitting in our office and she elected to bring both the legal father and the birth father into the office and have them both sign paperwork at the same time, and she was magnificent at orchestrating the two of them. She told them when to come into the office, when to come out of the office. She came in with each one of them. She made sure that they didn’t have any issues between them, and she handled that situation very well.

Ron:
Quite impressive.

Kelly:
It really was. I would say adoption guarantees would be another elephant. Everybody wants to know the for sures, the for sures in life. Are you for sure? Do you promise? Is this going to happen no matter what? Can you reassure me that this is the case? Unfortunately, in adoptions, there are no guarantees, just like with life. And when you’re riding a roller coaster, there are highs and lows and you like the highs and lows enough that people often will ride more than one. So they don’t ride the rollercoaster for the lows. They ride it for the highs.

Ron:
But boy, those lows sure accentuate the highs.

Kelly:
They do.

Ron:
Yep.

Kelly:
And you would never have the highs if you didn’t have the lows, so that’s what you have to remember.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
And when we’re looking at guarantees, ultrasounds can never be guaranteed. They’re never 100%.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Mistakes happen with ultrasound techs, with doctors reading the reports. Sometimes-

Ron:
Well, my brother’s first child, he thought he was having a boy, and lo and behold, I have a niece instead of a nephew.

Kelly:
And I’m sure everybody celebrated that it was a healthy baby.

Ron:
A beautiful, healthy baby. Yeah. The fact that we had the wrong colors for some stuff, you can get over that.

Kelly:
It’s returnable.

Ron:
Right?

Kelly:
Absolutely. I had a funny story about that as well. We had an adoptive family that was so excited. The ultrasound showed that the baby was a girl, and this was a very girly type adoptive mom and she had everything ready and she had headbands and Pepto Bismol pink everything.

Ron:
She was set.

Kelly:
She was ready to go. Those of you that watched the movie Steel Magnolias, the two colors, pink, was it blush and bashful, I think that they were?

Ron:
I never saw the movie.

Kelly:
Okay, so that was this mother, and when the baby was born, as you said, lo and behold, it was a boy. The pink headbands and the dresses and the pink car seat-

Ron:
Little out of place at this point, but they were thrilled.

Kelly:
But you know what? I can promise you the baby didn’t know the difference.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Another funny story about that. When I was first in the social service field, my very first job out of my bachelor’s degree, I worked with a woman, and her name was Kevin. And when I asked her about her name and how it came to fruition, she said that her parents thought they were having a boy and they loved the name Kevin. They had purchased multiple items with the name Kevin. They had told everybody they were naming the baby Kevin, and when Kevin turned out to be a girl rather than a boy, they decided they weren’t parting with the name.

Ron:
They didn’t weren’t going to go with Kevina or anything like that. They just stuck with it.

Kelly:
They stuck with it, and she didn’t go by her middle name. She went by Kevin. Clients would show up to talk with her the first time. She would come out and they would say, “Oh no, no, no, we’re here to see Kevin,” and they would look at her funny. So I always found that humorous.

Ron:
That’s great.

Kelly:
Another aspect of the adoption process that there are no guarantees are when it comes to labor and delivery.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
Prior to labor and delivery, we develop a hospital plan with a birth mother, and in that hospital plan, it outlines her preferences, who she would like in labor and delivery, what she would like to happen after the baby is born, where she would like the baby to go after the baby is born, whether it be her room, the adoptive parents’ nesting room or the nursery. Everything regarding her hospital plan is formalized, sent to the hospital-

Ron:
Prior to, right.

Kelly:
Just so everybody knows where to stand, what to do.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
But there’ll be situations where the birth mother will go into the hospital and have a change of mind in terms of, “I do want the adoptive family in the room when I deliver.”

Ron:
When this happens, right.

Kelly:
Sometimes adoptive dads are not as excited about going into the labor delivery room as the adoptive moms.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
The adoptive moms, most of them, you couldn’t stop them if you were an NFL quarterback. On the other hand, I think the adoptive dads would prefer, the majority of them … I don’t want to speak for everybody.

Ron:
Right. certainly.

Kelly:
.. rather than playing it in the labor and delivery room.

Ron:
It is very intimate and it’s an odd thing for guys, so I understand that.

Kelly:
It can be. So we prepare the adoptive dads that if you’re invited into the room, it’s really a good idea to go ahead and respect the birth mother’s wishes. She wants you to watch the birth of the baby.

Ron:
This is your child, too.

Kelly:
Absolutely. And she wants you to be a part of that connection and that process and she wants your support in there. We tell them normally, “Stand behind her shoulder and just be a voice of encouragement.” And I will say that most of the time, the adoptive dads do pretty well. We haven’t had any fainters lately.

Ron:
Lately, so it has happened, though. Okay.

Kelly:
I will also say that there was a situation that I found very funny, that the adoptive mother was on one side of the birth mother and the nurse was on the other side of the birth mother, and the adoptive father was standing behind the adoptive mother, and so he was not behind her shoulder, but right at her shoulder. And the adoptive mother was very modest, and so she kept trying to cover up the birth mother as she’s delivering the baby and kept pulling the sheet down, trying to keep her as covered as much as possible.

Ron:
Right. For the sake of modesty, that makes sense.

Kelly:
Absolutely, to the point that the nurse finally put an end to that said, “You’re fighting a losing battle. This is never going to happen. You got to let this go.”

Ron:
Just let it go.

Kelly:
Just….

Ron:
This is not the hill you want to die on.

Kelly:
Absolutely. We all kind of found that funny and sweet and endearing and yeah, we all laughed.

Kelly:
The last elephant that we’ll discuss today is what happens when a birth mom changes her mind.

Ron:
Okay. This is a tough one.

Kelly:
This is a really tough one. This is a pretty big elephant.

Ron:
Yeah, because it does happen.

Kelly:
It does. It really does. And it is part of the adoption process for many families. It’s something that is difficult for the adoptive family. It’s sometimes difficult for the birth mother. It’s always difficult for the adoption agency and the case workers. When a case worker is working with an adoptive family throughout the pregnancy and walking their adoption journey with them, they are so emotionally vested. This is a mission for our adoption case workers. This is a job that is not nine to five Monday through Friday, holidays off. We always have babies born on the holidays. They’re born in the middle of the night, on the weekends.

Kelly:
This is something that when you are an adoption case worker, you’re dedicating your life to. And when it doesn’t have a happy ending, it’s hard. It’s crushing. Nobody wants to be the bearer of the bad call. Nobody wants to have to call a family and explain that there’s been a change in circumstances and the birth mothers decided to keep her baby. I would say that when a birth mother does change her mind and you have a case worker, the birth mother case worker and the adoptive parent case worker both take it very hard.

Kelly:
There was one situation where we had a birth mother and she was placing her baby for adoption and the baby was about to be discharged, and the adoptive family was in the nesting room and they were waiting for the paperwork to be finished so the baby could go home. They had their car seat and their stroller, and the birth mother at that moment changed her mind, because in the state of Arizona, you cannot sign consent for adoption until 72 hours. She was still within that timeframe and decided at that point she was going to choose to parent. And when we walked back in and told the adoptive family that this wasn’t going to have a happy ending and the birth mother had chosen to parent, they handled it like troopers. And it was heart wrenching to watch them walk out of the hospital room-

Ron:
Knowing.

Kelly:
… with an empty stroller, with an empty car seat in the stroller, and they did have tears.

Ron:
I’m sure.

Kelly:
The case worker was having a very difficult time as well. She had worked diligently with this adoptive family, and when they left the room, she burst into tears and slid down the hospital wall. And I remember helping her dry off her tears and stand back up and giving her a hug and telling her it was going to be okay. At that moment, the adoptive family walked back in and looked at the adoption caseworker and their immediate concern was for her, stating, “Is she okay? What happened? Is something wrong? Did something else happen?” And it was so impressive to me that they had come back because they had left an item that they needed to pick back up, and their concern was not even for themselves. It was for the caseworker that was really struggling. And I thought that that was really endearing and really precious.

Ron:
Absolutely.

Kelly:
So I think that when we listened to the quote that I just love that you introduce an elephant in a room, I think that that can carry over to every aspect of your life. I think rather than worrying about something or wondering about something instead of being present in the moment, it’s better to address the elephant.

Ron:
Those issues.

Kelly:
They’re there.

Ron:
Sometimes tough issues.

Kelly:
Absolutely.

Ron:
Sometimes happy issues, but issues.

Kelly:
Because if you address them, you can find peace, have closure and move on.

Lindsey:
My name is Lindsey. When I found out I was pregnant, I was homeless, on drugs and I was trying to escape a domestic violence situation with my baby’s father. I came to Building Arizona Families as kind of just to explore my options. From the moment I walked in, they were super supportive. They were great. They did an interview and kind of asked me what my plans were, what I was thinking. I let them know that I was interested in adoption and from there, I received a case manager, and I was really terrified. This is my first child. All I could think about was needing to save my son. I couldn’t even get off drugs at the time, and I just had all these horror stories of would I go back to my ex-boyfriend, who he had a son my age and he started doing meth with his son when his son was 13, and I mean, I was totally alone. My family was not in the picture. They told me that I needed to get an abortion.

Lindsey:
So my case manager became like my mom. I would call her crying in the middle of the night, “Oh my gosh, I’m so scared about … I’m having this pain or this feeling.” And she’d walk me through the process of just kind of being there, because I’d never been pregnant before. Everything was brand new to me. She just loved me through everything. I mean, I went to all my doctor’s appointments because of Building Arizona Families, transportation, just everything, anything and everything to make sure that my son received the best care possible. And I don’t know if I would’ve been able to do that for him had it not been for Building Arizona Families.

Lindsey:
It was definitely the hardest decision I’ve ever made. And it still is something that is very hard, but it was the right thing, and still every day, I’m so thankful for Building Arizona Families. I’m so thankful for the couple that adopted him and I’m just so thankful for just this whole situation. I wouldn’t have been able to do it on my own and I know that he has a better life now and he has a chance to be great. And I mean, I know that he would have that chance no matter what, but he’s growing up in a good family and he’s growing up surrounded by love. I couldn’t be happier with all this. The care I received from Building Arizona Families and the whole process was just a dream come true. I wasn’t alone.

Ron:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna Kay Evans Foundation and that You Before Me campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song, I Don’t Know, as our theme song. You can check out our blogs on our website at AZPregnancyHelp.com. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.

Ron Reigns:
Today, we’re going to start the show with a special guest. Adam Scarry has been marketing in the corporate sector for 17 years. He’s the director of operations for Building Arizona Families, a board member of the Donna K. Evans foundation, and the husband of Kelly Rourke-Scarry.

Adam Scarry:
I cover all the angles. Yeah, they had asked me just to mention something about Kelly’s story. I think the most polarizing aspect to me was actually Kelly was the first person that I had ever met who was adopted. I didn’t know that it was, it’s not really an underground culture, but it’s something that people don’t seem to celebrate and talk about in a positive context. One thing that sticks out with me is, Kelly was born eight days before the actual landmark case of Roe versus Wade. I thought to myself, you know, I wonder if Kelly’s mom had been given the option, had it been legal, what her choice would have been, had abortion been a viable option.

Adam Scarry:
And the thing that sticks out to me is not only, and everyone’s got their political bias and their personal bent, but I think the thing that sticks out to me that’s undeniable and irrefutable is, if Kelly’s mom would have chosen to terminate her pregnancy, what she really would’ve done was abort all the future potential of that child, or in this instance Kelly, and because she made a selfless decision. Yeah, it’s not always the easy decision and oftentimes easy decisions aren’t always the most beneficial or the most advantageous for us. But in Kelly’s mother making the decision to place her for adoption, out of that decision has come the direct intervention and a rescue of over 700 other children.

Adam Scarry:
The argument, at least in my mind, a working example is, you’re not just terminating a pregnancy. That’s a very sterile, a very clean, sanitary concept. You’re terminating the potential of a life and all the lives they could have impacted. And out of the 46 million that we’ve aborted so far, nobody knows how many doctors, lawyers, presidents, congressmen, senators, biochemists, inventors, entrepreneurs we’ve aborted.

Adam Scarry:
I can tell you, at least in my family, had Donna K. Evans chosen what could’ve very easily been the low road, had there been about weeks difference, there would be hundreds and hundreds of kids whose lives would never have been impacted by Kelly because you terminate their destiny, you terminate their potential. You’re not just terminating a life, you’re terminating all the impact that life could have made. So as far as that argument, I think my wife’s story trumps the argument that, oh, it’s just another baby. Well, in her case, it was a woman who became a social worker who has made it her life’s mission to save other children.

Adam Scarry:
And when we got together, began dating, engaged, married, it became my passion. I came out of the corporate sector, had almost no exposure to adoption, and now that’s become my life’s mission. And so who knows what we will do, what the final number will be. But it’s much like Oskar Schindler who, once taken his eyes off himself and began to look in a longterm versus the temporal, found the value in people’s potential, not just where they are at the moment, which is why we have an aftercare program.

Adam Scarry:
I can tell you at least in my mind, that settles the argument that it may be a fetus to some, a mistake to others, but really what you’re holding is someone’s destiny in your hands, someone’s future, and all the impact they can make for good. And if there’s ever a working example of that, it would be my wife and her story.

Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 3:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 4:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 5:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 6:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R.S.:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in Family Studies and Human Development and a master’s degree in Education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I had worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:
Last night, I watched Unplanned.

Kelly R.S.:
Oh, I’ve seen that.

Ron Reigns:
And I thought it was very powerful movie. I thought it was very well done. I only had one problem with it. I think it was preaching to the choir, the people that are going to get information out of that already believe that abortion is the wrong choice, and I think we need to make that more known. We need to not say, okay, let’s not talk to the religious people necessarily. Let’s put out the facts and let them realize that these are lives.

Kelly R.S.:
You know, I think that’s a very good point. I also have seen the movie. I saw it when it came out. I try really hard to stay on top of the movies that discuss adoption and abortion, even the ones that are made for TV because we often get phone calls as an agency after they are released.

Ron Reigns:
I bet you do.

Kelly R.S.:
So I agree with you on the movie. I think that we are continually targeting the people that are already on our boat.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.S.:
And I think that if we step outside of the box, that is where we’re going to change what society understands, and we can only do that through education.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I think it’s vital.

Kelly R.S.:
It’s vital.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.S.:
And it’s time. I think as a country and as a society we are gravitating towards more knowledge, and that is being shown in the laws that are being passed through the heartbeat law and some of the other laws in terms of when abortions can happen or changing. So that is an incredible piece. I love that you watched the movie.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.S.:
I had a very hard time during the abortion scene.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, Lisa couldn’t watch it. She’s like, “I got to turn away. I can’t … ” And she was tearing up and yeah.

Kelly R.S.:
My 16-year-old wanted to see the movie and I let her. And she is very, very, very pro-life. I was hesitant to let her watch the movie because of that one scene.

Ron Reigns:
It is hard, very hard. There’s a couple of scenes that Lisa’s like, “I just can’t do this.” But it’s powerful.

Kelly R.S.:
It’s powerful. And where I think the movie did an amazing job was really portraying an insider’s view into Planned Parenthood. I know that they’re contesting some of the aspects of it, and I don’t want to get into the legalities of it. However, I learned a lot about Planned Parenthood, not necessarily about abortion, but about Planned Parenthood itself.

Ron Reigns:
As an organization.

Kelly R.S.:
As an organization.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.S.:
Regardless of whether there are some myths intermixed in that movie or not, I did learn more. And again, every time I learn something, knowledge is power and it just helps us rise to the next level.

Ron Reigns:
After you watch a movie like that and last night, this is what I did, I literally went online and started looking up debates for and against abortion. You want more knowledge, more power to go, “Okay, this either supports my beliefs or this makes me think, could I be wrong?” You know.

Kelly R.S.:
Absolutely.

Ron Reigns:
And I think that’s what we need to do as people.

Kelly R.S.:
Anytime that you have a stance on something like abortion or adoption, you always need to see the other side.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.S.:
Because I think that turning a blind eye to the other side is not going to make you more educated or understanding. I think that also when we are looking at something and we learned where the other side is coming from, we’re able to meet them where they are.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.S.:
Again, I’ve talked about being present in the moment. If you’re present in the moment and meeting people where they are, you’re going to reach them. If you’re not understanding where they’re coming from, you’re not going to form a connection and you’re not going to get your point across and you’re not going to be heard. So the most important thing, in my opinion, is really being able to understand.

Ron Reigns:
And empathize.

Kelly R.S.:
Even if you disagree. Some people will be so resolute in their own doctrine that you have to be the person to step outside of your comfort zone, your box, and-

Ron Reigns:
And put out that hand?

Kelly R.S.:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
And welcome them and or listen and know what they’re talking about and where they’re coming …

Kelly R.S.:
An olive branch is-

Ron Reigns:
Very, very powerful.

Kelly R.S.:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you.

Kelly R.S.:
Absolutely. When I developed the You Before Me campaign, it was not to condemn anybody who’s had an abortion, it was an is to celebrate the women that chose adoption and to educate those that have had abortions and are considering future abortions.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.S.:
When you are talking with a woman who is deciding what to do when she’s being faced with an unplanned pregnancy and she’s scared and worried and anxious and has every emotion imaginable, she’s excited on one hand and terrified on another. At that point, the best thing that anybody can do in talking with a woman who is facing an unplanned pregnancy is ride the roller coaster with her. Take her hand and just listen.

Ron Reigns:
Nice.

Kelly R.S.:
Oftentimes, people want to exert their opinion. They want to fix the problem, they want to take over and really make sure that that person’s fine when sometimes people just want to be heard.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.S.:
Taking a step back, providing education, explaining what the options really look like short term, long term, and letting her make a decision that she’s going to be comfortable with it, that she’s going to follow through on.

Ron Reigns:
In the long-term and years down the road, they can look back and go, “I’m glad I made that choice.”

Kelly R.S.:
“I’m proud of myself. I can look myself in the mirror and know I did the right thing and it was really hard, but I did the right thing.”

Ron Reigns:
And it was discomfort and emotion and everything else going into it, and am I giving away my baby? Which we talked about. No, you’re not. You’re placing that child.

Kelly R.S.:
You’re lovingly placing that child.

Ron Reigns:
Good.

Kelly R.S.:
And that’s important too because when a woman is making that choice, she is going to be influenced by outside factors. As a society, unfortunately, many people have normalized the concept of abortion.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.S.:
We need to work on normalizing concept of adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.S.:
As an adoption community and people who have participated in adoption, whether it’d be a birth mother, an adoptive child, an adoptive parent, it’s important to discuss it. It needs to be the norm.

Kelly R.S.:
When kids are playing video games and they’re playing the shooting games, my kids love video games. We have every gaming system imaginable.

Ron Reigns:
Lucky.

Kelly R.S.:
People will often say … Yeah, right? Lucky for them not so much for me.

Ron Reigns:
Not so much for you.

Kelly R.S.:
People often say, “Aren’t you concerned about the shooting games?”

Ron Reigns:
The violence.

Kelly R.S.:
And yes, and it’s going to desensitize them and it’s going to be non-beneficial in the future and it’s going to be harmful. And it’s almost ironic to me that we’re so focused on one aspect of what the future can hold if we let our children play video games.

Ron Reigns:
And normalize that.

Kelly R.S.:
Right. We’ve normalized that, desensitize our children to these video games, but yet abortion is happening …

Ron Reigns:
Constantly.

Kelly R.S.:
… every day.

Ron Reigns:
It’s already normalized.

Kelly R.S.:
Correct. And unfortunately, many are desensitized to it. And that is why women are having multiple abortions and not just this was an unplanned pregnancy and whether it’s one baby or seven, it’s a tragedy. And when I’m not in any way, shape, or form discounting this shooting games and the impact they may or may not have, I’m using it as an analogy to where we’re focusing a lot of time, effort, energy studies on what’s the long term effect of video games, but we’re not really focusing as much time, attention and detail to what’s the long-term effect of abortion.

Kelly R.S.:
And by changing that focus to adoption and putting our time, effort, energy into the promotion of adoption education, I think as a society we can change the mindset and the alternative go-to when a birth mother chooses not to parent.

Ron Reigns:
Right and look at the long-term benefits of adoption over abortion; mental, physical, all that.

Kelly R.S.:
Right. Some studies that I have read, and again, certain studies that we share on the podcast, we will be citing sources. The ones that we’re not citing sources on, we will state that as well. And it’s because there’s so many general studies out there. I read a study that stated that the leading cause of death is actually abortion and …

Ron Reigns:
It’s not heart disease and car accidents?

Kelly R.S.:
No.

Ron Reigns:
It’s abortion?

Kelly R.S.:
If you believe a baby is …

Ron Reigns:
A baby at conception.

Kelly R.S.:
… a human at conception, then the leading cause of death is abortion. And that to me-

Ron Reigns:
That’s chilling.

Kelly R.S.:
Right. It’s heart-wrenching. Because as a society, these are our babies and we see on the news when there is a bad car accident, and we lose a family and that’s terrible and devastating. We’re watching, and I’m getting chills as I’m saying this, we’re watching on the news these mass murders and as a nation we’re grieving over the loss and it’s-

Ron Reigns:
As well we should.

Kelly R.S.:
100%.

Ron Reigns:
In comparison, numbers wise-

Kelly R.S.:
But we’re not grieving for these babies.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you.

Kelly R.S.:
Our goal in the You Before Me campaign is to promote that there is a third choice, and that’s adoption.

Ron Reigns:
In my opinion, a better choice.

Lacey:
My name is Lacey and I placed my daughter Jayda two months ago. I chose adoption because I didn’t feel it was fair to her to go the route where you terminate a pregnancy because it really had nothing to do with her. I was the responsible party and I needed to make a decision accordingly. So because the father left when I was three months pregnant and I already have two daughters, I knew that was the only option really for her to have a better life, and I knew that there was a lot of beautiful families out there who can’t have kids or for whatever reason, they don’t go through that process. So I felt that it was the best thing for her is to give her everything I could never give her. So that’s why I placed her.

Lacey:
I chose Building Arizona Families because I was kind of in a situation where I was going to be kicked out of my house and I was going to have nowhere to go, be five months pregnant, and they got me in. They got me taken care of. They basically saved my life and they saved my baby’s life because I would have been homeless on the street. They were amazing. I got in here and they took care of me and were there with me through the whole journey. So it was a good choice.

Lacey:
I didn’t think I was strong enough to do it and I did it and I’m in a really good place now, even though it’s only been two months, I’m in a very good place. And I have a really good adoptive family who are beautiful to me, and so it can turn out good for everyone involved.

Lacey:
Building Arizona Families, they were just supportive through the whole process. My case manager, Blaine was beautiful. I love her. And she was there no matter what I needed. Like I said, all my needs were taken care of. I’m really glad I chose this place and the people here are wonderful, and they support you the whole way.

Ron Reigns:
We have a pregnancy crisis hotline available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112 or you can call us toll free at 1-800-3409665. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get you to a safe place, provide food and clothing and get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan. You can check out the blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com.

Ron Reigns:
Special thanks this week to Adam Scarry as well as to Admiral Bob for the use of their song, Where Are You? As always, thanks to Grapes for letting us use their song, I Don’t Know. as our theme song. Join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. We’re Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.