Ron Reigns:
The views and opinions expressed on today’s podcast are solely those of Kelly and myself. The information concerning the Paul Petersen case has been collected from various sources, and while we try to cross-reference these details, we understand that this story is still developing and that some of these facts may reveal themselves to be inaccurate as more is learned about the case.

Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 3:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 4:
I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 5:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 6:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R.:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the Executive Director, President and Co-Founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me Campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling.

Kelly R.:
I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a close adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:
Today on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, we’ll be discussing the Paul Petersen case, the Maricopa County Assessor, an adoption attorney who was arrested this past Tuesday, October 8th and indicted on 32 counts in Arizona including conspiracy, fraudulent schemes and practices, theft and forgery. He’s facing at least 62 federal and State charges including charges in Utah and Arkansas.

Kelly R.:
What I find really interesting about this case is this has gone on for what appears to be a few years, and this is now just coming to light. Where I’m really excited to talk to you, Ron about this is not only to dig into the material that has been released by different media sources, different areas such as court paperwork, other professionals opinions is really the present and future impact on adoptions where we as adoption professionals can support the adoption community and any potential backlash, or myths, or misunderstandings that may occur as a result of what Mr. Petersen is being alleged of.

Ron Reigns:
Right? Now, you take a very optimistic view. You don’t think that adoptions are going to decrease or at least not by and large and I’m of the same mind, and in a way,  I think this may shine a light on the adoption industry to where people go. Adoption, I forgot about adoption, so I’m so optimistic.

Ron Reigns:
I think that even though this is a horrible story, people may start looking into it a little bit more and going, “Obviously not everybody in the industry is corrupt, or doing fraudulent things, or bilking the state out of monies for a Medicaid and things like this, which seems to be going on with this Paul Petersen cat.” But I think this hopefully will bring more light to the industry.

Ron Reigns:
And if people come to places like our podcast, they can listen and go, “I’m learning more about actual adoptions that are on the up and up that are legit.”

Kelly R.:
100% agree.

Ron Reigns:
Good. All right.

Kelly R.:
Not only is this going to bring light to adoption that has been in darkness for so long and has not received the time, attention and respect it deserves, but it’s going to encourage globally us to understand the process of adoption and to understand the laws that are already in place.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
For instance, when Mr. Petersen was arrested and booked into the Maricopa County jail on October 8th, I found it interesting that prosecutors tell the judge at his initial court appearance that they consider him a flight risk and his cash bond is set at 500,000.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I find this very interesting because this is a man who I believe is an elected official, correct?

Ron Reigns:
He is. He’s the County assessor.

Kelly R.:
And being the County assessor, we’re now considering him a flight risk and setting his cash bond at half a million dollars. So that really puts it into perspective for me as a society, are we doing our due diligence and research as a whole when we are electing officials, when we are scrutinizing who we’re voting for and so forth? I find that interesting. That was one point that I looked at and I read and I thought, wow, okay, that’s really interesting.

Kelly R.:
So we go from putting somebody into this position and again, at this point he’s being charged. He hasn’t been found guilty to my knowledge, he hasn’t… nothing has confirmed these allegations.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Additionally, with understanding that, I think us going back through a timeline and gaining more of an understanding of the acts that he’s being accused of are going to help us reassure those families that are considering adoption, or in the middle of adoption, or have adopted that this is not reflective of the adoptive community.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly R.:
They say that one bad Apple in a barrel can ruin the rest of them.

Ron Reigns:
Spoils the whole bunch.

Kelly R.:
Spoils a whole bunch. Well, it doesn’t have to and it’s not going to.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Let’s start back at the beginning.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
What we know so far from the information that we’ve gathered is investigators in Arizona found 28 women from the Marshall Islands gave birth in Phoenix area hospitals between November 30th, 2015 and May 30th, 2019 according to the court documents. The women as they waited as long as six months to deliver their children lived in a Mesa home owned by Petersen.

Kelly R.:
Eight pregnant women were also found at the residence in Mesa. That’s the starting point. During this three year period, they were brought here from the Marshall Islands to have their babies to then have them adopted to families in the United States.

Ron Reigns:
Correct.

Kelly R.:
We have also learned from the department of public safety that Mr. Petersen had been involved in adoptions of Marshallese babies since at least 2005.

Ron Reigns:
At least. Right.

Kelly R.:
And you had stated prior to the podcast when you and I were discussing this, that he received his degree in 2003?

Ron Reigns:
2002, and while he was still in school at ASU pursuing his degree in mass communications from the Walter Cronkite School and also his law degree from the ASU School of Law. He had an article written about him in the Arizona Republic saying that he was not necessarily performing adoptions back then, but that he was dealing with the Marshallese women and trying to help facilitate these adoptions.

Ron Reigns:
It was very interesting that I found that article and it was high praise of him at the time from the Arizona Republic.

Kelly R.:
And he is a member of the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Ron Reigns:
That’s correct, the Mormon church.

Kelly R.:
And he did his mission in the Marshall Islands?

Ron Reigns:
Correct also, yes.

Kelly R.:
So that would be the connection that he may have to the Marshall Islands.

Ron Reigns:
Exactly.

Kelly R.:
Mr. Petersen was born in August 1975 in the 1990s. He’s a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints, serves as church mission in the Republic of Marshall Islands according to the court documents. For all of you who are wondering about where the Marshall Islands are located, they are located near the equator in the Pacific ocean between Hawaii and the Philippines and they have a population of about 53,000 people, which is not very big.

Ron Reigns:
That’s very… Matter of fact, that’s not much larger than Prescott Valley if you want to look at it that way.

Kelly R.:
Okay, so a really small community church.

Ron Reigns:
A small community here in Northern Arizona.

Kelly R.:
In 2002, Mr. Petersen graduates from the Sandra Day O’Connor School of Law at Arizona university. Earlier he earns a degree from ASU’s Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication. In 2005, he begins to arrange adoptions involving women from the Republic of the Marshall Islands according to Arizona authorities.

Kelly R.:
In 2014, Mr. Petersen wins a special election to replace Keith Russell who left his position as Maricopa County Assessor to become East Mesa justice of peace. The assessor is responsible for property valuation, which determines how much owners pay in property taxes. He also in 2014 begins to practice law in Arkansas.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. So there’s where our Arkansas connection is?

Kelly R.:
There’s the Arkansas connection. In November of 2015, Mr. Petersen and his co-defendant, Lynwood Jennet facilitate travel for pregnant women from the Republic of the Marshall Islands to Arizona. In November of 2016, Mr. Petersen wins a full four-year term as Assessor. His biography on the assessor’s website makes clear that he continues to practice law from his Mesa based office and his law practice remains committed to helping people across the country in their effort to adopt children.

Kelly R.:
April 2017, the FBI receives a tip that Petersen’s co-defendant in Arkansas Maki Tahehisa, is how I think you pronounce it, offered to pay up to $10,000 to pregnant Marshallese women to travel to the United States, give birth and consent to have their babies adopted by American parents. October 2017 callers to the Utah attorney General’s office, human trafficking tip line in October 2017 report suspicious births and adoptions involving Marshallese women in Utah hospitals sparking an investigation there.

Kelly R.:
November 2018, the nonprofit news organization, Honolulu Civil Beat, an investigative piece titled Black Market Babies, questions the legality of the adoptions Mr. Petersen administered. In December 2018, Arizona Department of Public Safety receives a tip that Mr. Petersen’s practices also appear suspicious in conducting adoptions involving pregnant women from the Republic of the Marshall Islands.

Kelly R.:
October 7th, 2019, Mr. Petersen and a co-defendant Lynwood Jennet are indicted in Arizona on 29 counts are fraudulent schemes and three counts of conspiracy, theft, and forgery. An investigation last year questioned the legality of adoptions Mr. Petersen administers through his private sector job as a private adoption attorney.

Kelly R.:
October 8th, 2019, Mr. Petersen is arrested and booked in Maricopa County jail. Prosecutors tell the judge at his initial court appearance that they consider him a flight risk and his cash bond is set at $500,000. October 9th at a news conference, State DPS Director Frank Milstead says, “Troopers found eight pregnant Marshallese women and a Mesa house owned by Mr. Petersen.”

Kelly R.:
Authorities in Utah on the same day announced 11 felony charges tied to Mr. Petersen’s adoption services. The U.S. attorney for the Western district of Arkansas unveils a 19 count indictment. DPS also learned that Mr. Petersen had been involved in adoptions of Marshallese babies since at least 2005. Let’s get into the nuts and bolts of this.

Ron Reigns:
Please.

Kelly R.:
Prosecutors are saying that Mr. Petersen used forged documents to make it look as if the women were Arizona residents.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And he did this so that they could get Medicaid, is that correct?

Kelly R.:
Right. What I understand is he would bring the pregnant women over from the Marshall Islands and tell them that they were going to come to the United States, have their baby, and then they were going to return to the Marshall Islands with a $10,000 amount of money… I’m sorry, a $10,000 check basically.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
He was bringing them over, getting them on access, at the same time, billing the adoptive families for the medical costs. Again, all this is speculation at this point because nothing has been proven-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
… but the American parents are stating that the cost for the adoption is up to $40,000. I’ve seen numbers when I was doing research from between 25,000 up to 40,000 for his services. The adoptive parents were reportedly told that part of the fees covered the pregnant women’s medical costs, and so that obviously is a huge concern.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Because we were already paying for their medical costs.

Kelly R.:
Correct?

Ron Reigns:
Through our taxes.

Kelly R.:
As Arizona residents.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. And then after these… Many of these women had their babies and places babies for adoption, he would then deduct money from the $10,000 allotment that he had promised them to cover their living costs while they were living in his home in the United States, which according to some of the research that I did, were not very high living standards.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
They were mattresses on the floor.

Ron Reigns:
Well, eight people in one house, four people in a room at times.

Kelly R.:
Sure.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Not great living conditions.

Kelly R.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
That’s a college dorm maybe.

Kelly R.:
Sure. At best.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And a pregnant woman may want more room, more privacy as she is getting ready to deliver her baby.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
What I was very relieved to read is that prosecutors in Utah are not questioning the completed adoptions.

Ron Reigns:
Good. Yes. And as well they shouldn’t.

Kelly R.:
They shouldn’t.

Ron Reigns:
I do have a question about that though. Okay. They did make it very clear in their press conference that they weren’t including the adoptions of those who had gone through already, so they’re not going back to…..

Kelly R.:
The finalized adoptions, correct.

Ron Reigns:
What about the eight, for instance, that are pregnant right now? What happens to them? Do we know?

Kelly R.:
We don’t. My educated prediction would be the women that are currently in Arizona waiting to deliver babies will probably be returned to the Marshall Islands, unless they have some type of passport or clearance to stay in the United States.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. So they’re not going to follow through with the adopting families on those particular cases because they haven’t been completed and consents haven’t been signed.

Kelly R.:
Well, the babies haven’t even been born.

Ron Reigns:
And the babies haven’t been born, correct. Okay.

Kelly R.:
And in the state of Arizona, you cannot sign consents until 72 hours after the baby is born.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
That being the case, there is no adoption per se at this point, so I would find it hard to believe that the adoption would proceed considering the fact that this hasn’t been done legitimately from the start.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I do find it very reassuring and very gracious on the part of the prosecutors in Utah saying upfront that they’re not questioning any of the adoptions that have already occurred.

Ron Reigns:
I agree.

Kelly R.:
That can definitely put adoptive families minds at ease and they can hug their babies and know that nobody’s is going to-

Ron Reigns:
They’re not going to come and-

Kelly R.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
… bust down the door and take the baby from them.

Kelly R.:
I’m sure that was the first thought that we could have had.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, can you imagine?

Kelly R.:
No, I can’t. That’s terrific.

Kelly R.:
Another point that was very interesting to me was Linda Henning Gansler is listed on the website as a director of Bright Star Adoptions. This agency is affiliated from what it appears with Mr. Petersen.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
So it’s his-

Ron Reigns:
To what degree?

Kelly R.:
Right. To what degree is this his… Is he funneling adoptions through Bright Star Adoptions? Because he, from what I understand, was a sole practitioner in his law firm. Is that correct?

Ron Reigns:
It sounds like it. Yes. So yeah. Is Bright… Because right now as it stands, the only indictments that have come through have been against Mr. Petersen as well as Lynwood Jennet.

Kelly R.:
And Maki-

Ron Reigns:
Right. Those are the only three that have indictments against them from that we know.

Kelly R.:
From what I’ve read this morning, correct.

Ron Reigns:
Apparently at this time Bright Star hasn’t been implicated in this illegal activity.

Kelly R.:
That is-

Ron Reigns:
But that’s not to say they won’t be.

Kelly R.:
That is correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
In Utah, investigators found that Mr. Petersen took in millions of dollars in nearly two years from the adoptions that he was performing between December 2016 and September 2018, bank account records subpoenaed by an investigator show a little more than two point $7 million-

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
… going into an account that Mr. Petersen told families was for wire transfers. Most of the transfers, the investigator with the Utah Attorney General’s Office wrote, “Included notes that indicated they were adoption payments.” For the Marshallese women interviewed by the investigator in Utah said they were offered the $10,000 for doing the adoption.

Kelly R.:
They also told the investigator that the money significantly influenced their decision to go through with adoptions according to court documents.

Ron Reigns:
Now that amounts to baby selling, am I correct?

Kelly R.:
Correct. Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
Not only is it that, the problem with that is if a woman states that she was influenced in her adoption choice, that is where coercion can come into play.

Ron Reigns:
And the whole thing can be nullified.

Kelly R.:
In the state of Arizona-

Ron Reigns:
Yes.

Kelly R.:
… and this was stated in the State of Utah.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
I can’t speak for Utah Laws, but in the state of Arizona, the only way that you can overturn an adoption is through coercion, so of coercion can be proven, then that can jeopardize the stability of an adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And if I offer you $10,000 for anything, that’s pretty much evidence of coercion.

Kelly R.:
It could be consumed as such.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. I want to go back to something else because I had thought that he was double bilking people as it was. Let’s talk about the health insurance thing-

Kelly R.:
Okay.

Ron Reigns:
… where, okay, first he’s charging the adoptive family for health insurance when he’s going through this, then he’s having the birth mothers falsely get access, so that’s paying for the health insurance from our tax dollars. And then thirdly, he’s knocking it off the top of the monies he’s promising them. So he’s tripled billing.

Kelly R.:
Well, no, I think it’s more double billing. I think he was knocking off monies from the Marshallese women more for living expenses, is what I was reading-

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
… rather than their medical expenses.

Ron Reigns:
All right.

Kelly R.:
So I think, yes, double billing for sure. Maybe he included some, but I read that that was more geared towards the living expenses.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
Because it was his home that he was bringing the women into.

Ron Reigns:
Right. So that’s, not that it’s justified, but it’s a little more understandable and it’s not possibly illegal to do that.

Kelly R.:
It would honestly depend on how he was defining the end result, the end $10,000.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
When he was talking with the women, it would behoove the court and the prosecutors to see if there was a service agreement between him and the birth mothers, and in that service agreement it should be stipulated whether or not there was going to be any fees deducted from the final amount, which I don’t know if the $10,000 was stated as post-birth living expenses or whether it was stated a quote gift, or whether it was a direct payment for a product, in this case, a baby.

Ron Reigns:
Which would be baby selling.

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
It’s situations like this that make society question the whole black market. Is this black market? Is this black market-

Ron Reigns:
The legitimacy of adoption in general.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. And this is also what like for instance in Guatemala, shut down adoptions and Guatemala. Now, do I think this is going to shut down adoptions and era in the United States or in Arizona? No, I don’t.

Ron Reigns:
No, no.

Kelly R.:
I do think that it is important for laws to be enforced. I do think that when you are dealing with human lives, there should be scrutiny over what an agency or adoption entity is doing. That’s the reason that all adoption agencies have to go through annual renewals for their license and we have a worker that comes out and goes through all of our files and walks through the office and looks at our contracts and looks at our documents.

Kelly R.:
And not only do they do that once a year, they can do unannounced visits as well.

Ron Reigns:
As well, they should.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely.

Ron Reigns:
Some oversight is important. You want there to be regulation and not just, it’s not the wild West out there.

Kelly R.:
Correct. And as well there should be, like you said-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
… there is no reason that when you are dealing with human lives and human trafficking is so abundant right now in the world that there shouldn’t be like you said, an extra set of eyes, double checking, making sure that you’re following laws, you’re following protocol. I will say that because Mr. Petersen allegedly has taken these illegal actions, has participated in these illegal actions, my hope is that good will come from this and it will globally educate people about adoption.

Kelly R.:
Not only those who are interested in adopting or in the adoption process, but that it will encourage agencies to be more transparent. That’s one thing with Building Arizona Families that I’ve always stated to all of our workers as well as the families that adopt through us and our birth mothers is transparency is vital in adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Hopefully this will chase out some of the outliers and the bad elements, the bad actors in this. Do you think that there are adoption attorneys and adoption agencies that due to the light being shown on Petersen’s case might start getting very nervous about their own practices?

Kelly R.:
If they’re not on the up and up.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
I think adoptive families or families that are considering adoption don’t need to be scared. I think they need to look at it as a wakeup call in the sense that do your education, do your research, check and see if the agency is licensed, see how long they’ve held their license, check and see if their license has ever been suspended.

Kelly R.:
Check and see if they hold any other accreditations. Check and see if they’re registered with the Better Business Bureau. Check and see who their affiliates are. This is where when you are buying a home or you are even buying a car, you do a lot of research.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
That’s comparable to adding a family member.

Ron Reigns:
Right, exactly.

Kelly R.:
It’s not in the same level.

Ron Reigns:
Expanding your family with a child.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. Because you’re not just talking about a monetary expense, you’re talking about an emotional expense, a physical expense because of the toll it’s going to take on you. Adopting a child is going to affect every aspect of your life. And as a partaker in that you should do your research, you should have a good understanding of what is right and what is not right.

Kelly R.:
Another recommendation would be for adoptive families to ask for references from families that have previously adopted through them.

Ron Reigns:
That makes sense. And all this stuff is so much more readily available to people who want to do the research and should do the research because we have the internet now.

Kelly R.:
We do.

Ron Reigns:
And so it’s not that hard to look up the Better Business Bureau and find out about the agency, the lawyer, whoever you’re discussing an adoption program with.

Kelly R.:
Additionally, I think it’s also important if the agency that you’re working with has other accreditations to look and see what those accreditations are. For example, Building Arizona Families, as I’ve mentioned before, has a Hague accreditation. A Hague accreditation is not necessary for a domestic adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
It’s solely for international adoptions. But what it means is that an additional entity, in our case, it was the Coalition On Adoption Accreditation that came in and did their own investigation through all of our files, and our forms, and our financial audits and gave us the accreditation.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Additionally, we had another set of eyes going through and scrutinizing our practices, which is important.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely.

Kelly R.:
I find it very interesting that Mr. Petersen’s lawyer, Matthew Long has defended his client’s actions as proper business practices and said that they’re disagreeing with the allegations. I think unfortunately, this may be a very hard case to fight due to the number of incidents that have occurred and what they have found to be true.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
There’s no disputing that the women were put on Medicaid for Arizona, which we title AHCCCS, which is an acronym for Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System. The investigators in Utah found that more than 40 women traveled from the Marshall Islands to Utah to give birth.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, okay. So, I was wrong earlier when I said that they were transported from Arizona to Utah.

Kelly R.:
Right. They came from the Marshall Islands to Utah-

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
… and Petersen claimed to be the facilitator of those adoptions. The records of those plane tickets were actually paid for by Mr. Petersen’s credit card.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
And two of the adoptive parents told investigators they visited a home owned by Mr. Petersen in a suburb of Salt Lake City where the pregnant women lived.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
They said they saw as many as 15 pregnant women living on the floor, some sleeping on mattresses on a bare floor.

Ron Reigns:
Wow. See, now you’re getting into more territory that sounds like human trafficking. While they say that these women came voluntarily, they’re still living in these conditions.

Kelly R.:
Right. And that begs the question, did the women understand the process? Did they understand what they’re being asked to do? Did they understand the ramifications? Did they understand that this was under false pretenses potentially? Did they understand really what adoption was? Is there a language barrier? Was this a concern?

Kelly R.:
One of the adoptive parents interviewed by investigators in Utah said that where the pregnant women lived was very similar to what you would consider a Baby Mill.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
That’s really upsetting to myself as a woman or I’m sure as society in general.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. As a person, just knowing that they’re putting people in these conditions and promising them something better.

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
I have a question for you.

Kelly R.:
Sure.

Ron Reigns:
I don’t know, I try to see the good in people and it makes me wonder, he’s been doing these adoptions since at least 2005 it sounds like.

Kelly R.:
Involved in them to some aspect.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Well, what I want to know is, do you think he started off with great intentions and it just slowly but surely things started to escalate and it’s like, well, we could get them healthcare, let’s just fill… And just one little thing, it doesn’t matter if we do one little thing wrong.

Ron Reigns:
And then next thing you know, it becomes this huge human trafficking type situation, baby selling and it just snowballed on him or do you think that he was a corrupt person, obviously we’re speculating here from the start?

Kelly R.:
I want to believe that anybody who is trying to positively impact the lives of women and children is doing it for the right reasons.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
The fact that he did his mission in the Marshall Islands-

Ron Reigns:
And probably saw the conditions.

Kelly R.:
… and saw the conditions that the women were living in and was trying to do good, I would like to believe that it started out with good intent.

Ron Reigns:
Right. And maybe even to this day he still thinks I’m doing a good thing.

Kelly R.:
Yeah. I can’t speculate-

Ron Reigns:
Even if I’m skirting the law. Right.

Kelly R.:
… on what he’s thinking, but-

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly R.:
… I would hope that this was not done with malicious intent. When you look at where adoptions evolve and change and how they can negatively impact globally, whether it’s people or countries, you look at countries like Romania and countries like Guatemala that had a huge adoption rate internationally to the United States.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Both countries stopped and halted the process because they went black market.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
Practices in those countries led to money being the motivator rather than women and children being the motivation behind-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
…. the reason.

Ron Reigns:
And lives, right.

Kelly R.:
And looking at those two countries, especially Romania, we’ve all seen pictures of the children in orphanages and the babies left in the cribs because of the vast numbers of children that are in these orphanages and the ratio of staff to babies, and we’ve seen the damage that it can cause when a baby doesn’t have that individualized care.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
As we have said in other podcasts, when you know better, you do better. That is not what is happening in this case with allegedly with what Mr. Petersen has done. It is illegal for Marshallese women to travel to United States for the purpose of adoption. It is also illegal to scam Arizona’s Medicaid system, which State Attorney General, Paul Brnovich alleges Maricopa County Assessor, Paul Petersen did when he helped these women illegally access State funded medical benefits to the tune of $814,000.

Ron Reigns:
Wow. That’s unbelievable.

Kelly R.:
That’s a lot of money.

Ron Reigns:
And that’s just in the past three years, it sounds like.

Kelly R.:
That’s how I would interpret the information as well.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I hope that the families that have adopted through his practice can find peace.

Ron Reigns:
I think that’ll be tough emotionally for a while.

Kelly R.:
I do too. I also hope that if this comes to fruition that these allegations are in fact true, that the women who were brought over from the Marshall Islands can receive some sort of assistance because they would absolutely be victims of him.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. There’s a lot of victims and very few perpetrators in this,

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
… it sounds like.

Kelly R.:
And in this situation, unfortunately, all members of the adoption triad could definitely be negatively affected by it.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly R.:
I don’t know if there were post-adoption communication agreements between them. A lot of times internationally there’s not. If there’s an international adoption, there’s not a post-adoption communication agreement. In most cases, there are post-placement reports that are generated., but again, these weren’t presented as international adoptions, they were presented as domestic adoptions.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I wonder what the women who are being brought over from the Marshall Islands, I wonder what they were thinking. I wonder what they were promised, which is why I had referred to if there was a service agreement between them. I wonder how they found out about Mr. Petersen and his adoption practice. Those are questions that I have.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I wonder if by keeping the women in house together, he was hoping that they would have a sense of community and encourage one another, and it’s almost the group mentality type. If it’s late at night and we want to go jump in a Lake and go swimming, if one person does it, you don’t know if you want to jump in with them, if a second person does it, you feel a little safer.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
If a group of people-

Ron Reigns:
But if four people jump in the lake-

Kelly R.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
… you’re like, “I’m all in.”

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. Then you’re jumping in that lake. I don’t know what impact short-term, long-term this is going to have on his family, his wife, his children. I don’t know what’s going to happen if he’s found not guilty, whether or not he will be disbarred on another charge. I don’t know what this will carry in terms of long-term ramifications.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Obviously, it’s going to affect the family financially, emotionally. Anytime, even if every charge was dropped tomorrow, the kids are going to have this memory in there, and I don’t know how old they are. They’re going to have the memory of dad going to prison or jail.

Kelly R.:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
That’s-

Kelly R.:
That’s huge.

Ron Reigns:
That’s huge.

Kelly R.:
That’s huge.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, it will definitely negatively impact them. And for how long? Like you said, that’s up for speculation.

Kelly R.:
Who knows?

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.:
I really hope that at the end of the day, and when this is all settled, and whatever verdict comes to fruition that this was not done with malicious intent.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I think he did probably originally especially have great intentions of helping-

Kelly R.:
I hope so.

Ron Reigns:
… these birth mothers in the Marshall Islands.

Kelly R.:
And I hope that this podcast can help educate society on what’s going on in the adoption world, why this is important, why education, which is the platform for the podcast is so important, and hopefully as we learn more and the case develops further, we will have more insight as to the questions that we still have.

Kelly R.:
When an adoptive family is looking and choosing an adoption agency, I think it’s important to know where the birth mothers are located that the adoption agency is working with. That is one reason that Building Arizona Families solely works with Arizona residents.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
Medicaid, like I’ve stated before in Arizona is titled AHCCCS, and AHCCCS fraud is a felony, I believe. I think my biggest hope in terms of an outcome is that if the alleged charges against Mr. Petersen are true and his accomplices, that they will be sanctioned appropriately, adoptive families can find peace. The women who gave birth to these babies also can find peace.

Kelly R.:
I don’t know if any due diligence was served upon the birth fathers. I don’t know what aspect the birth fathers are going to play in terms of whether they themselves are victims as well. I don’t know what impact this will have on them and I don’t know what impact this may have on the adopted children as they grow up and understand the surroundings of their adoption and what occurred.

Kelly R.:
And as society, I think it’s our role to provide assistance to them and to the families and support, unconditional support because as a victim, this was nothing that they did wrong.

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly R.:
And I would hope that any adoptive family that is a party to this does not look at themselves and think, I should have done something differently, or I wish I had done more research, I wish that I had done this or that, or turns and blames themselves. I really hope that they can see that this happened and-

Ron Reigns:
There’s nothing you can do about it at this point.

Kelly R.:
At this point.

Ron Reigns:
But like you said, hopefully they can find that peace.

Kelly R.:
Yes. That is what I wish for them is for them to find the peace, and for Mr. Petersen, if these allegations again come to fruition and he is found guilty, I really hope that he takes the opportunity and educates the prosecutors and the courts what he did, why he did it, and that way we can make sure that it’s not done again because if he does have-

Ron Reigns:
That they can spot when it’s-

Kelly R.:
… inside information-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
… that it can be used to prevent this from happening in the future. There’s got to be a silver lining in this and we need to find it.

Ron Reigns:
Kelly was interviewed by KTAR Radio’s, Jim Sharpe on Friday morning, October 11th. Here’s what that sounded like.

Speaker 7:
KTAR, in depth.

Jim Sharpe:
With the story breaking this week that Maricopa County Assessor, Paul Petersen, an elected official who also happens to be an adoption attorney was involved in some very questionable even illegal adoption practices, which included keeping pregnant women from the Marshall Islands in some very cramped conditions in at least two States. I started to think about what this will do to legitimate adoptions.

Jim Sharpe:
And joining us is Kelly Rourke-Scarry, the President and CEO of Arizona’s largest adoption agency known as Building Arizona Families. Kelly, thanks for being with us. I love, I think like everybody does those new stories we see where a family court judge puts kids and adults who aren’t technically related in front of them and pronounces them a family. Are we going to see fewer of these beautiful scenes in Arizona thanks to Paul Petersen?

Kelly R.:
Thank you. No, I don’t believe that we will. I think that the public will understand that adoption is still one that is an entity that needs to continue to occur. I think families who believe in adoption will continue to follow the adoption process. So, no, I do not believe that this will impact the families who want to adopt.

Jim Sharpe:
But I’m sure you do anticipate some greater scrutiny by at least adoptive parents and maybe even some birth moms, right?

Kelly R.:
I do think that people are going to do more research, which is always a good thing. Agencies like ours believe in education, that’s why we use a podcast twice a week to inform families and just society in general about adoption. And that’s really important for people who are going to adopt to educate themselves.

Jim Sharpe:
Definitely you want to be scrutinizing those situations of course, but are you anticipating a greater scrutiny by the Arizona legislature, maybe some new laws?

Kelly R.:
That’s a possibility definitely. I also think that maybe they will tighten the laws that are currently in place. I think enforcing those laws is the most important thing to do. We do have amazing laws in place and if they’re followed, that’s one of the reasons as an adoption agency that we’re licensed. Every year we have to go through a full licensure examination, meaning they come out to our office to go through our files, to go through our records, they speak with our clients, they walk through our office. And that’s really important to make sure that as an agency we’re following protocol.

Jim Sharpe:
What should families be looking out for and birth moms for this matter when it comes to working with an adoption agency? What questions should they be asking to make sure that they’re not caught up in something like what Paul Petersen was up to?

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. I would say to make sure they’re working with a licensed agency, find out what licenses and accreditations they hold. Maybe look into the Better Business Bureau and see if they’re registered. Find out how long they’ve been licensed and practiced, how many placements they do in a year. And definitely asked to speak to references of families who have adopted.

Kelly R.:
Also, they would want to look and see, does this agency offer education? Do they have a way to promote adoption education outside of just what the agency recommends? In other words, again, we have a podcast, Birth Mother Matters in Adoption because we want society as a whole, not just those adopting to really understand what adoption is and how it affects all angles of the adoption triad.

Jim Sharpe:
All right. Thank you, Kelly. Kelly Rourke-Scarry is the Co-Founder, the President and CEO of Building Arizona Families, Arizona’s largest adoption agency, and the first question she answered makes me very happy. She says she doesn’t think that there’s going to be a drop-in adoptions in Arizona thanks to this Paul Petersen case. now at KTAR.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and the You Before Me Campaign. Thanks to KTAR, 92.3 in Phoenix, Arizona.

Ron Reigns:
A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t know as our theme song. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.