Ron:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 3:
It was best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid. And that’s not fair.

Speaker 2:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency. The Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign.

Kelly:
I have a Bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development, and a Master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007.

Kelly:
I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly:
Adoption. The good, the bad, and the ugly. As the co-founder and agency director there’s little that I haven’t seen or heard. That being said, I think adoptive families will be surprised by some of, the answers that I am going to disclose.

Kelly:
In my opinion there should be no secrets. I believe in complete transparency when it comes to adoption. Secrets just breed concern, fear, and separation. When public figures adopt it brings light and awareness to adoption. And in most cases it’s a good contribution to adoption.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
But without releasing personal information it can sometimes breed assumptions, myths, and speculations. An example would be when Madonna adopted some kids from an African country.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
There was so much information that was not disclosed, and she has every right to not disclose that.

Ron:
It’s her right. Right.

Kelly:
That’s her life, it’s her child, it’s her adoption, and it’s her family. Sometimes I think that we take it too far with celebrities, and we feel owed that information.

Ron:
Sometimes. Right.

Kelly:
Yeah. Okay.

Ron:
It’s gotten pretty ridiculous.

Kelly:
Understatement of the year. Right?

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Yeah. As people are sticking cameras in people’s windows and the fact that she shared she was adopting, I think was enough.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Without having to go into explanations. For all the birth mothers that are listening now these are your stories. You’ve shared them with me, and I want to share them with our other listeners, so they can understand where you’re coming from.

Kelly:
Again, these are your stories, but it’s the only way I can have your voice be heard in this manner.

Ron:
I like it.

Kelly:
Let’s do it. So, here are some things that I have seen over the past 15 years. Prostitution is a way that babies are conceived, that are placed for adoption.

Ron:
Be still my breath, I didn’t expect that.

Kelly:
Yeah. Prostitution’s not uncommon at all. A lot of prostitutes do have pimps. Most of them and they are in favor of adoption for the most part. As long as they can maintain control.

Kelly:
So, I haven’t seen pimps interfere in most situations. In terms of preventing the adoption from going through.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
It means there will be a lot of birth fathers, but other than that …

Ron:
Potential birth fathers.

Kelly:
Right. Potential birth fathers. Thank you. Birth mothers often have other children, and yet still choose to not parent this unborn child. Every woman has her own story and her own reason for choosing adoption.

Kelly:
No one should ever judge a woman for making this choice. Going back to the Madonna scenario that we just talked about, Madonna didn’t need to, nor do I believe she did disclose her reasons for making an adoption choice as an adoptive parent.

Kelly:
For the same reason a birth mother doesn’t need to disclose to society why she’s choosing to place her baby for adoption. Everything does not need to be an open book.

Ron:
Everybody’s business.

Kelly:
Right. If you were to choose an abortion you don’t walk out of the abortion clinic and acknowledge and yell out to everybody why you chose to have an abortion. Should that be the unfortunate choice that you make.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Birth mothers may be married, and the birth father of the unborn child may not be her husband. I have seen that situation play out. An example of a situation that we had happen, was a woman was married, living with her husband and he had, had a vasectomy, and she was pregnant.

Kelly:
And the baby was not his, and she hid her pregnancy from her husband. When it came time to go to the hospital the father, the biological father of her baby was aware of what was going on and was in favor of her adoption choice, and very supportive.

Ron:
That’s a strong man. I had to admit. I don’t know if I could put myself in that same category.

Kelly:
Right. Sure. And in the hospital, she had told her husband that she was having some kidney issues, and so she was going to be in the hospital for a few days. And apparently, he didn’t believe her.

Kelly:
He decided to show up at the hospital after the baby had been born. At that time the adoptive mother, and the birth mother, and the baby were all in the room together. It was late at night.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
And the husband walked in and looked at his wife and said, “You had a baby?” And she said, “No I didn’t.” She said, “It’s her baby.” And pointed to the adoptive mother.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Well, the adoptive mother is now covering her head with the blanket and is calling me on her cellphone asking me what to do. Now, this is one of those, “Oh my goodness.” Situations.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Like, this is a one in a million situation.

Ron:
This isn’t a common occurrence. You don’t get this every five adoptions.

Kelly:
No. No, no. No, I’ve never seen this but one time in 15 years.

Ron:
Okay. Thank god.

Kelly:
Yeah. Looking back it was like, “Wow.” So, she’s underneath the covers asking me what to do and I’m trying to instruct her in staying calm, and the husband ups and leaves when the adoptive mother took the baby home.

Kelly:
And because the husband was the legal father, because they were married the biological father took a paternity test to prove that he was in fact the biological father.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
So, he was able to sign consents and that was how the adoption was able to go through. It was just one of those situations where you look at lives and you think, “How did you get into this situation?”

Ron:
Right. Not to judge them, but to go, “Wow.”

Kelly:
No. To go, “Wow, that was a doozy.”

Ron:
but for the grace of God go I.

Kelly:
Exactly.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
Exactly. Well said. So, that was definitely a situation that I will never forget. And I’m sure the adoptive mother will never forget it either.

Ron:
Or the legal father, or the biological father, or the adoptive parents, or anybody involved.

Kelly:
Right, right. Absolutely.

Ron:
The case manager. Everybody will remember that for a few days.

Kelly:
Absolutely. The family of the birth mother may not know about her adoption choice, and may not even know that she’s pregnant. We have lots of women that come to us that often hide their pregnancy.

Kelly:
They don’t want to answer questions, they don’t want to be judged or criticized. They want to be embraced. And I can’t tell you how much I love it when I have a birth mother that comes in and she has her grandmother, which I see a lot, or her own mother come in and sit next to her and support what she’s doing.

Ron:
It’s awesome.

Kelly:
That brings tears to my eyes.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
I had one this week that did that, and the grandmother sat there and asked questions, she was so supportive.

Ron:
And involved.

Kelly:
And involved.

Ron:
Wow.

Kelly:
Involved. Absolutely.

Ron:
That’s an amazingly strong family when you see that. I’m sure. You probably don’t see a whole lot of it, but when you do it’s got to …

Kelly:
I don’t see it very often, but when I do it’s incredible.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
And I like I said, it brings tears to my eyes, because it is such a strong sense of, in my mind, support. No matter what, I’m here.

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
And that’s what I tell my children. No matter what, I’m here.

Ron:
Good choices, bad choices.

Kelly:
I’m here.

Ron:
Good boyfriends, bad boyfriend, whatever it is, your mom.

Kelly:
Right. Yeah.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
Some birth mothers may have intentionally become pregnant and then decided that it wasn’t the right time to parent. So, not all babies that are placed for adoption are unplanned. Not all of them are surprises.

Kelly:
There are situations where a woman and a man may have had, wanted to have a baby, and then he wound up getting arrested and is going to prison, or they both lost their jobs and they’re now homeless, or they broke up and want nothing to do with each other, and don’t want to raise each other’s child, so there’s lots of different reasons.

Kelly:
We do have, as we have said In other podcasts, that birth mothers may have a very long list of potential birth fathers. This doesn’t negatively impact the adoption, it makes more work for our attorney, but other than that it’s just fine.

Kelly:
Sometimes a birth mother may plan on doing an abortion and then change her mind and make an adoption plan. Oftentimes I will have women come in and say they were going to abort the baby, but the baby was further along than they had thought.

Kelly:
They didn’t have enough money. I hear that one quite a bit. Or they just couldn’t bring themselves to do it. Birth mothers who do more than one adoption may or may not choose the same adoptive family.

Kelly:
Sometimes a woman will come in and she’s already placed with our agency one time, and she may not have had a good experience. Sometimes they may not have had a good relationship, or a good connection, or they feel that the adopted family didn’t follow through with the post adoptive communication as smoothly and seamlessly as they wanted them to.

Kelly:
They may want to bless another family, because they want their child to be the first child in the family. There’s lots of reasons.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
We as an agency love it when we can keep siblings together.

Ron:
Yeah. I kind of, think that’s where my heart is too.

Kelly:
That’s always my first choice. Yes. That’s my first choice.

Ron:
But, hey, everybody’s got to walk their own path and figure it out for themselves too.

Kelly:
Correct. And again, we empower the women and let them choose, but my preference is to keep siblings together, if we can do that.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
We had a question once where a woman was having twins and she asked, “Are you going to keep the babies together?” And I said, “Oh, absolutely. I would never in a million years split up twins. Never in a million years.”

Ron:
With twins. Certainly.

Kelly:
And she said, “Oh, good. I was concerned.” And I thought, “Yeah, that’s something that as an agency director I would never ever….”

Ron:
Recommend or even support.

Kelly:
No. I wouldn’t be a part of it.

Ron:
Okay. That’s where you draw the line then on that?

Kelly:
I do.

Ron:
Okay.

Kelly:
I do. I do. Absolutely. Sometimes birth mothers will choose a closed adoption and then when the baby’s born they may change their mind and want an open adoption. I have seen a mother who goes into labor and delivery, and wanting an open adoption and then she disappears after the baby’s born, and doesn’t want to see the baby.

Kelly:
That doesn’t mean that she won’t come back in the future.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
That’s sometimes a big disappointment for some adoptive families. Some adoptive families really want an open adoption, and they really want to include the birth mother, and they want to have her be a part of their lives and their child’s life.

Kelly:
And sometimes birth mothers aren’t in a place where they’re ready to do that.

Ron:
And they’re just having a baby, it’s an emotional time as it is. It’s very hard. A lot of anxiety and a lot of different direction. So, I understand why they wouldn’t want to, and hopefully they do come back fairly soon and get to see the family and the adopted child.

Kelly:
Right. I have seen birth mothers come back. When we travel to other states and talk with adoptive families about adopting oftentimes adoptive families will ask about their birth mother, “Have you heard from her? Have you heard from her? Has she seen our pictures?” And sometimes we haven’t.

Ron:
Yeah. And it’s hard to give them the true response, but you do what you got to do.

Kelly:
Yeah. You do what you got to do. And again, it’s not that the birth mother’s not interested in them or interested in the baby, it’s, sometimes they’re in survival mode and you go back to the hierarchy of needs.

Kelly:
And they’re worried about where they’re going to sleep that night. They’re worried about where they’re going to shower. They’re worried about when they’re going to eat again.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
And to add in the component of, “Oh, here’s pictures and letters of the baby placed for adoption.” Is just too much.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
So, when you’re in survival mode their mind is in a different place. Other times that they may disappear is, after they’ve placed their baby for adoption, choosing a better life for their baby than they feel they can provide, is a real blow to their self-esteem.

Kelly:
And we’ve talked about self-esteem in another podcast.

Ron:
Absolutely.

Kelly:
This realization is absolutely heartbreaking. To be open and raw, and real, and present in every moment is painstaking. So, when birth mothers aren’t able to be present for extended periods of time after the baby’s born, and they come and go, or they go for long periods of time, or they disappear, it’s not that they regret their choice or that they resent the adoptive family, it could just be that it’s just too hard.

Kelly:
In the future they may come to a place in their life where they’re able to say, “I’m ready.”

Ron:
Yeah.

Kelly:
And I’ve seen that happen. I have seen that happen. And we embrace that. And that is why, at the Donna K. Evans Foundation, if you have placed a baby privately for adoption you can come directly into the program or you can come back in a year, or two years, or three years. There’s not a deadline, because the deadline is only in your mind.

Kelly:
We’re there when we’re needed, and we’ll wait, because it’s the birth mother who’s made the choice of life.

Ron:
Right.

Kelly:
We can wait for her and give her that opportunity.

Ron:
With the Donna K. Evans Foundation what if they place through another agency, besides Building Arizona Families, are the services, and is this help available to them as well?

Kelly:
Good question. The answer is yes. Any birth mother who has placed privately for adoption can have equal and total access to the services offered by the Donna K. Evans Foundation.

Kelly:
This is not solely for our agency.

Ron:
Right. Okay. That’s awesome to hear.

Kelly:
It’s awesome to do. I was placed for adoption in 1973. My mother was 16 years old. She made the selfless decision to choose adoption for me. I was adopted by a wonderful adoptive family and because I was placed for adoption I was able to go to school, I was able to go to college, and I was able to get my Master’s degree.

Kelly:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the director and co-founder of Building Arizona Families, and the Donna K. Evans Foundation, which we nicknamed SWAP. Supporting women after placement.

Kelly:
After I co-founded the agency I actually looked for my mother, and I found her in 2007. My mother struggled with her adoption choice. In her struggle had she had help, assistance and counseling she might have had a much better experience, and she might have not struggled with depression, or anxiety, or guilt.

Kelly:
And so, we developed the Donna K. Evans Foundation. The Donna K. Evans Foundation is a non-profit 501C3 organization that helps women after they have placed a child for adoption.

Kelly:
We want to give women the services and the support that women like my mother did not receive. Our goal is to let women know that women matter. That they made the right choice when they chose adoption.

Kelly:
And what we’ve learned as we’ve done adoptions for over 14 years is, birth mothers need help and we want to be the ones to help them.

Kelly:
We know about the selfless choice that they made and we support them, and we support their choice. When a woman comes into our agency we are able to give them an emergency food box immediately.

Kelly:
A woman can come into our office and receive a food box even if she is not pregnant. Our food pantry is funded through private donations, both financially and through food donations.

Kelly:
We have a clothing closet right here at our facility. We have a maternity clothing for the women who are in our adoption program and are looking for clothing the minute they walk through our door.

Kelly:
And we have, in all sizes, these are all donated clothing. We have clothing that is appropriate for job interviews, that is appropriate for regaining their self-esteem. We do have GED materials onsite for women who are interested in obtaining their GED.

Kelly:
We also have computers that you can use for practice testing to help obtain your GED as well. We also have domestic violence services. We can help with restraining orders, we can also help with emergency housing through hotel vouchers.

Kelly:
We’re looking for monetary donations, so you can help support this fantastic program that’s going to help hundreds of women after they have placed a child for adoption. We want to give them a hand up, not a handout.

Kelly:
Donations could include anything from clothing, to non-perishable food, to GED study guides, to temporary bus passes. We need you to help us, help them. Be part of the solution. Make a difference in all of these women’s lives.

Kelly:
The adoption community is a large community and you’re part of it. You are part of the solution. We chose angel wings for our logo, because angels were important to my mother. Angel wings are symbolic of being able to fly.

Kelly:
The goal of the Donna K. Evans Foundation is to help women find their wings, so they can fly. Please contact us through the Donna K. Evans Foundation on our website at the dkefoundation.com.

Ron:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. Written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns.

Ron:
We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K, Evans Foundation, and the You Before Me Campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t know as our theme song.

Ron:
You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com and you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast, or adoption in general at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. Make sure to join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns, we’ll see you then.