Ron :
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, with Kelly Rourke-Carry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you didn’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans foundation and creator of the You Before Me-campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in Family Studies and Human Development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007 I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron :
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly:
Continuing in our series on life and loss and grief and adoption, brings us to the adoptive families.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
We may not think about adoptive families grieving, or suffering grief or loss because they are the benefactors of adoption.

Ron :
Right-

Kelly:
They are the ones who got the baby.

Ron :
… you just think they’re the one who got the baby.

Kelly:
Right.

Ron :
They’re happy, everything’s perfect.

Kelly:
And that’s what we strive for.

Ron :
Right.

Kelly:
But sometimes there’s bumps in the road and as Joseph Campbell said, “We must be willing to let go of the life we had planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us.”

Ron :
Probably pretty good advice for anybody.

Kelly:
For anybody.

Ron :
Yeah.

Kelly:
I agree. I want to start with a story. I love telling stories about our adoptive families and our birth moms and situations that we see, because I think we can learn from them. I think we can learn and they’re relatable. And I think for our listeners, being able to visualize some of the things that we see will help them understand and ingest what we’re saying a little bit easier.

Ron :
Definitely.

Kelly:
We had a family that didn’t have any other children and they were adopting twins.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
The birth mother was in her room. She was getting ready to be discharged. The adoptive mother was standing at the nurse’s station, signing some papers, getting the babies’ shot records. Both of the car seats were next to her. She had set them down next to her. The babies’ in the car seats, going from zero to twins, I mean-

Ron :
Wow.

Kelly:
… baptism by fire here. And I was standing next to her and the adoptive mother put both arms on the counter and rested her forehead on the edge and started to cry. And I asked her what was wrong, and she said, “I feel like I’m stealing this lady’s babies.” And I asked her why she felt that way and she said, “This is the best moment for me. I’m walking out of the hospital with two beautiful babies. She’s still in her room. She’s crying because she already said goodbye. And I’m leaving with her children-

Ron :
With this blessing.

Kelly:
… And I just feel like I’m doing something wrong.” And in my mind, I thought the compassion that this woman has. And the love that she has for the birth mother is so commendable.

Ron :
Yeah.

Kelly:
What I suggested she do, was she left the babies with me at the nurse’s station. She walked back into the birth mother’s hotel room, sat on her bed and hugged her, and they cried together. It was one of those moments where everything was right. She thanked the birth mother again, gave her a kiss on the forehead and walked back out and picked up the babies and her husband had brought the car around. So the nurses and I and the adopted mother walked her and her new babies out to the car. It was a moment that I will never forget.

Ron :
Just gives you chills.

Kelly:
It gives, it gives you chills, and it makes you really appreciate that at that moment her own wants, thoughts and feelings weren’t the priority in her head.

Ron :
She cared about another person.

Kelly:
She cared about another person and put that person above herself. And that is what I try to convey when I’m working with birth mothers, is the love and the honor that these adoptive families are wanting to display and sometimes they just don’t know how.

Kelly:
Another situation that I want to share before we jump into life and loss and grief, is it’s not just the adoptive mothers. We often talk about adoptive mothers and birth mothers and we don’t always mention the birth fathers or the adoptive fathers and there are going to be special podcasts that I think we dedicate just to those individuals.

Kelly:
But in this circumstance there’s a story that I want to share about an adoptive father.

Ron :
Please do.

Kelly:
We had an adoptive family that had had a disrupted adoption with us prior. A birth mother had changed her mind prior to placing the baby for adoption and that was very difficult for them. They came back into our agency and they went through the adoption process again and they had a successful placement.

Kelly:
When we were leaving the hospital with the adoptive family, the birth mother said goodbye in her room and the adoptive mother was in a wheelchair with the baby in her lap. Because that’s how this hospital’s protocol was. They wanted the baby in the wheelchair with the adoptive mother. And as we’re walking down the hallway to exit the hospital, the adoptive father put both hands on the wall and started to sob and I mean sob-

Ron :
Uncontrollably.

Kelly:
Uncontrollably.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
We all stopped and asked him if he was okay and it was just this overwhelming sense of emotions. He was crying for the the baby that wasn’t meant to be before this baby. He was crying out of pure joy that he is now a father. He was crying for the loss that the birth mother had to sacrifice for him to be able to be where he is in that moment. And it was so brave in my mind on his part that he accepted those feelings and released them.

Ron :
Wow.

Kelly:
And I think that that is again, something that I’ll never forget. Because not all adoptive parents adopt because they cannot biologically have children, loss and grief are not going to be the same across the board for adoptive families. In my opinion, loss and grief are going to weigh differently depending on the reason that an adoptive family would choose an adoptive plan. Letting go of a dream of being able to bear your own biological children is the death of a dream.

Ron :
That makes sense.

Kelly:
When you have death, it often is accompanied by grief. In my opinion, it’s very important to resolve the issues of grief in relation to adoption prior to beginning an adoption plan for an adoptive family.

Kelly:
For instance, if you have experienced unsuccessful attempts and infertility, those are some unresolved issues, not only medically but mentally. It is important for adopted parents to really make sure that they have come to peace and gone through the stages of grief with fertility before beginning an adoption plan because you don’t want to carry unresolved issues into a new entity. You want to start fresh.

Ron :
Right, because then you’re piling it on, on top of each other.

Kelly:
Correct. Another point is if you’ve had a disruption in a previous adoption or a failed adoption plan, again, it’s important that you resolve those issues. Whether it be counseling or time, whatever you need to do to heal. That way you can start fresh.

Kelly:
It’s almost as if you enter an adoption plan with unresolved grief, whether it be from a failed adoption or failed fertility treatments, you’re cheating yourself, because you’re not giving yourself fully to what you’re about to-

Ron :
Embark on?

Kelly:
… embark on. Absolutely. Additionally, I don’t think it’s fair to the birth mother because she doesn’t have all of you.

Ron :
Your thoughts are divided. You’re in two different places.

Kelly:
Correct. With regards to the birth mother and your unresolved grief. Some examples where it may become an issue would include if your birth mother wants you to attend her doctor’s appointments.

Ron :
Right.

Kelly:
If you go to the perinatal appointments with her, and you really want to be the one that’s carrying the baby. And it’s hard for you to be there and support her through it, she may pick up on some of that.

Ron :
Right, you’re not focused on her and what she’s going through. You need to work your stuff out before that.

Kelly:
Correct. Sometimes also, those emotions that you have, can manifest into jealousy, resentment, anger. In that moment when you’re standing next to the birth mother who’s carrying your child, it’s really important to be present in that moment to give all of you because she’s giving all of her.

Ron :
Definitely.

Kelly:
You also may find yourself resenting your birth mother for being able to biologically conceive a baby.

Ron :
I could see that.

Kelly:
And that’s why it’s important to address those issues prior to starting an adoption plan. In the event of a disruption or failed adoption, you may find it hard to trust the second situation. And I’ve told adoptive families, “Don’t cheat yourself out of this. Don’t ride the roller coaster with your eyes closed, because you’re going to miss out. In everything, be present, be whole.”

Kelly:
And adoption is a beautiful journey. And yes, there are highs and lows, but only being there for part of it, is again cheating you, and it’s cheating the birth mother.

Ron :
You’re losing out.

Kelly:
And you don’t want to go into a second situation, overly questioning the birth mother’s motives like we talked about before about the adoptive mother who kept asking the birth mother, “Are you sure you’re going to do this? Are you sure you’re going to do this?” That’s adoption agency’s job. That’s our role.

Kelly:
I think that you need to focus on the beauty of adoption, and if that’s the choice that you’ve made, that adoption is the best scenario for your family, then make sure that you are mentally, physically ready to undergo this journey. If you’re going to go hike Mount Everest, you’re going to plan for it. You’re going to financially make sure that you have enough money to cover the entire trip. You’re going to pack your bag and your backpack with everything that you could possibly need. In adoption, it’s very similar. You have to mentally and physically prepare yourself. You need to make sure you have all of the tools and the coping mechanisms that you’re going to need prior to beginning.

Kelly:
Adoption may not have been your first choice. You may have wanted to bear your own children. You may have tried fertility treatments; they may not have worked. You may have exhausted every other measure to bring a biological child into the world on your own. And when that doesn’t happen, as we just stated, that can bring grief. Where we go back to the five stages of grief, is here. In my opinion, adoption should never be looked at as plan B. Adoption should be looked at as a journey. If your end goal is becoming a mother and a father, then adoption is just part of your journey.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
It shouldn’t be looked at as a second resort or a default. It should be looked at as an option that you’re trying. Just like you tried fertility, just like you tried biologically without fertility treatments. Life does afford us opportunities and adoption is an opportunity. So, prior to the starting the adoption process, again, please make sure that you address any unresolved fertility issues so that your adoption journey isn’t impacted by them.

Kelly:
Respect the fear of the unknown. In doing that, understand that not everybody is going to have a magical, beautiful, perfect non-bumpy flat ride through their adoption journey, and that doesn’t mean that your adoption journey is going to mimic theirs. So if you had a friend that had a negative journey, that doesn’t mean that yours is going to take on that same shape.

Kelly:
The other thing that I’ve heard from adoptive families is by adopting, it’s going to let family and friends know that biologically they’re not able to conceive. With fertility treatments, you don’t necessarily tell family and friends that you’re undergoing them. Adoption if you choose to tell family and friends that you’re adopting because you’re unable to have children, sometimes adoptive mothers and fathers will feel that it makes them less than. That there’s something wrong with them as to why they can’t have children. And I’m here to reassure all of our listeners, everybody feels the same way.

Ron :
They have a lot of the same fears and trepidation.

Kelly:
Absolutely, and it doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong. It’s just a different journey that you’re going to be taking. Anxiety over what a future adoption can hold in regards to your present family can also bring fear. When an adoptive family grieves, whether it be because they have unresolved fertility issues, they are struggling with the fact that they have to talk to their family and friends about their upcoming adoption journey rather than a reproductive journey, they too may enter the Babbler-Ross stages of grief. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

Kelly:
Somebody who has no experience in the adoption realm and doesn’t understand the emotions or the process or what the journey entails, may not understand what an adoptive family is going through. That being the case, an adoptive mother or father may struggle with letting somebody know that they’re having a hard time.

Ron :
Who did they talk to and how does somebody that hasn’t been through it associate with them?

Kelly:
Correct.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
50 years ago we didn’t have the resources that we have now. We didn’t have the knowledge that we have now. Because we have both the resources and the knowledge, there’s so much help out there. The fear 50 years ago is still very similar to the fear today for adoptive families, that after they bring the baby home, if they’re not bonding immediately with the baby, that there’s something wrong with them themselves.

Ron :
Right.

Kelly:
And again, that’s normal. Nobody said that you have a time period in the first two days that you have to bond with the baby. This is a new experience, especially if you’re a first-time mom.

Kelly:
For adoptive mothers when you bring the baby home, things that can trigger grief could be the fact that your life has changed forever. Maybe your family members are not reacting to the new baby as you had anticipated that they would, maybe the adoption consents have not been signed depending on your state’s laws and you have such fear that the birth mother will not execute those consents. Or maybe just the simple idea that this baby is 100% dependent upon you.

Ron :
Right.

Kelly:
And you are responsible for this baby.

Ron :
And that’s not exclusive to adoptive parents. I mean new mothers face that all the time.

Kelly:
Oh, absolutely. And that is a really good point because a lot of the feelings that adoptive mothers and fathers feel are very, very parallel to what a first time mother or a mother may feel bringing home a baby.

Ron :
Certainly.

Kelly:
Another factor that could trigger grief is maybe you’re resentful that you couldn’t give birth to your own biological child. And even though you’re adopting this beautiful baby, but maybe the baby doesn’t look like you. Maybe the baby doesn’t look like your family. Maybe you really thought once you saw the baby you were going to instantly fall in love and bond. And you’re looking at this baby that is crying every hour and is eating and pooping and not sleeping and you’re constantly caring for this child and you’re feeling that maybe the baby doesn’t like you and it’s hard.

Ron :
It’s a barrage of emotion and thought coming at you.

Kelly:
Yes. Maybe part of the grief is the fear of one day when the child is older, you’re going to hear this statement. “You’re not my real mom. You’re not my real dad,” or the fear that you’re out in public and somebody may ask if those are your real children. I’m here to say, as an adopted child, when you’re out in public or whether you’re in your own home and somebody says to you, “Are those your real children?”

Ron :
Just, why does it even matter?

Kelly:
Regardless of whether they’re adopted or not, they are your real children. Resources for adoptive parents, as we stated, are much more accessible-

Ron :
Than they were 50 years ago for instance?

Kelly:
One practice that hasn’t changed is post-placement visits and reports. And those are done incrementally depending on if the baby has special needs, if the baby does not have special needs. And they’re done with newborn adoptions until the adoption is finalized. And it’s where a social worker will come into your home and see how things are going. These can bring a sense of fear and grief in the sense that it’s a reminder that this was not a biological child, that this is one more step that has to be done in the adoption plan.

Kelly:
These visits are to be helpful for the adoptive family. They are to provide resources if they’re needed. They are not there to judge an adoptive family. They’re not there to take the baby away. They’re not there to see how clean your kitchen is, or to make you feel like you’re not doing something right. The social workers there to help make sure that people are bonding, that everybody is acclimating well, and if they’re not, they’re there to provide resources and interventions so that that can happen. That is the goal of those.

Ron :
But I imagine in a lot of adoptive parents minds that’s like, “Okay, the man is coming to watch me and judge me,” and you know, I would imagine a lot of those thoughts are somewhere deep in their mind. Even though they know it’s supposed to be just to help. And it would be like, “Oh my, my house, did I clean the toilet?”

Kelly:
Agreed. But that’s not the case.

Ron :
Okay.

Kelly:
So social workers can recommend some coping skills. They can recommend literature for reading, counseling, parenting classes. The goal is to help you continue your adoption journey.

Ron :
Certainly.

Kelly:
There has been some research done that adoptive mothers can experience something similar to Postpartum Depression after adopting a newborn baby. There is a book called Post-adoption Blues by Karen J. Coli, PhD and John R. Thompson, MD. This book is phenomenal in the sense that it describes first and foremost what happens, why, how it is similar to Postpartum, how you’re going to experience very parallel emotions and what you can do. And again, this book will give you coping mechanisms and teach you triggers and help you work through those scenarios.

Kelly:
Another thing that is really important when you’re reading literature and trying to help yourself so that you can get through the stages of grief, is understanding that a lot of what you’re going through is very, very normal. A lot of adoptive families experience the same things. It’s not talked about, because people fear, judgment and embarrassment. And that is one of the goals of these podcasts, are to bring to light what hasn’t been brought before. If you are an adoptive mother or an adoptive father, and you’re struggling after having a baby placed with you, although it may be hard to admit that you need to help for fear, rejection of what people might think, feel, or say, don’t let that stop you and getting the help that you need.

Ron :
If you’re a birth mother, adoptive family member, adopted child or just a listener to the podcast and you’re facing depression, grief, or anxiety, the national suicide prevention lifeline is available 24 hours a day at 1-800-273-8255, that’s 1-800-273-TALK.

Ron :
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters And Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Carry, and edited by me, Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna K. Evans-foundation, and the You Before Me-campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song “I Don’t Know” as our theme song, you can check out on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast or adoption in general at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112.

Ron :
Next time on Birth Mother Matters And Adoption, we’ll finish up our three part series on loss and grief and adoption for the adopted child. For Kelly Rourke-Carry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.