Ron Reigns:
Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid, and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R.:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development, and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly R.:
Abortion again is one of those hot topics that we talk about. The reason we developed the You Before Me campaign was to provide continued education to society about abortion and make sure that facts are known. One aspect that’s not often discussed is what life is like after an abortion for the woman who has one, or for the significant other who is with that person who has one. Meaning the birth mother.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and sometimes supportive, sometimes not as supportive, but either way, they feel the effects, as well.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely, and I think it’s important to understand what emotions a birth mother and birth father experience, how long they experience them, where do they go from here, does the pain, guilt, shame, regret go away? Is there any of those emotions, or is there just relief, and feeling like you dodged a bullet?

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
This is a hard one.

Ron Reigns:
I can attest.

Kelly R.:
And this is one that I am speaking solely from a professional standpoint, because I have not experienced this. As you’ve shared, you have experienced this.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And I hope that you will feel comfortable in chiming in, because again, I’m only on one side of this. Various research studies state that there may be categories of women who do regret their abortion choice. Women who are affected by the stigma of abortion, women who go on to change their beliefs on abortion, and women who never really wanted to abort, and felt pushed or pressured into it.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
I would believe that a birth father would feel the same way.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, in the same free categories like that.

Kelly R.:
Okay. Do you think from the woman who actually physically had the abortion to the birth father who in my mind was just as affected by it, not physically, but in every other area, do you think that those feelings are the same?

Ron Reigns:
That’s tough to say, because I’m kind of a firm believer that we’re all individuals, and we all take things differently. Who knows? Maybe there are people who, men and women, who can just move on after this choice with no regrets, and maybe don’t even feel any effects of it ever. But it’s hard to say that my walk is the same as anybody else’s. But from my experience, yes, I definitely have felt these effects. I don’t know if they’re even the same as the effects that my ex-wife feels, so I don’t know. That’s a hard question to answer.

Kelly R.:
How long after the abortion did you start to feel the effects?

Ron Reigns:
It certainly wasn’t immediate. I think maybe a couple of years, and then I really started looking back on it and thinking, “What have I done?”

Kelly R.:
Was it before or after the birth of your son?

Ron Reigns:
It’s been so long ago, I’m going to say honestly, it might have been when she was pregnant with my son.

Kelly R.:
That makes sense. That would be a huge trigger.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, and as I had said, she had gone through two abortions, so I guess at the time I just… I was so young and very naïve. Didn’t realize the consequences, not just emotionally on me, that’s beside the point, but on what I had… God, I can’t even do this here. Hold on.

Kelly R.:
Just take your time.

Ron Reigns:
The consequences on the life that was never allowed to be because of the choice I had made.

Kelly R.:
On the baby. You are so brave to talk about this, because I believe that what you’re saying is saving lives.

Ron Reigns:
I hope so. I hope somebody will hear this and go, “Wait, am I choosing the wrong thing here? Or how will this affect me when I’m 50?”

Kelly R.:
You don’t have the ability, unfortunately, to go back and change the past.

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly R.:
But you have the ability to talk to other birth fathers. Because men, in a lot of instances, would prefer to hear it from another man, and that’s what I’ve been told when I speak with birth fathers, and you have the platform and the opportunity to share, because they… There may be birth fathers out there, and they’re with their pregnant girlfriend, one-night stand, somebody, and they may think, “Well, abortion is a really quick fix to get out of this.”

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.:
It’s really something that we can just put behind us, and move on, and because you’re being courageous, and you’re able to share your story, I really do believe that if there’s a heaven, your baby’s looking down giving you the thumbs up.

Ron Reigns:
Well, thanks.

Kelly R.:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
That made it worse. Thank you.

Kelly R.:
Okay. Sorry. Not trying to make it worse. It’s what I believe in. I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

Ron Reigns:
No, I know. Not at all.

Kelly R.:
No. It’s I really do believe. I really do believe that we all have regrets, and we don’t always have an opportunity to-

Ron Reigns:
Help others to not-

Kelly R.:
Not even helping others, but sometimes you can’t fix a mistake that you’ve made.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly R.:
But there are things you can do to make it better.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. Yeah.

Kelly R.:
And that’s what this is, and I think that by making it better, and I wasn’t… An example would be I wasn’t able, during my mother’s life, to make her life better. I wasn’t able to change her view of adoption, or her feelings of condemnation, or shame, or regret, because of the care that she didn’t receive. After she died, I was able to do that. I was able to take a stand, and start a foundation, and use her life as an example of what shouldn’t be.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and how we can affect change in our lifetimes.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely, and that is parallel to exactly what you’re doing by sharing your story.

Ron Reigns:
Well, I don’t even know how to respond. Thank you, and I hope so.

Kelly R.:
I hope you can see the connection.

Ron Reigns:
I absolutely can. I just… I’m in a little bit of a vulnerable place at the moment, so it’s kind of… I’m a little overwhelmed. Sorry.

Kelly R.:
No, don’t be sorry. I think that this is exactly what needs to happen for people to understand the after effects, because people don’t talk about what can happen years and years later, or the triggers, or when you have an abortion, or your significant other has an abortion, and you didn’t at the time have the literature, or the understanding, and the studies weren’t out there as to what it really was, what it entailed, how it affected the baby, and you read it now, those things… I’m getting chills as I’m saying this. Those things can be beyond overwhelming. It’s not just like a dark cloud. It’s all encompassing, and I completely understand, because from a different standpoint, I had those same emotions with my birth mother.

Kelly R.:
I wasn’t able to fix it. Because I didn’t come into her life until 10 years before she passed away, I was not able in those 10 years to change her view on adoption. I wasn’t able to erase the guilt, or the same, or the condemnation she felt. I didn’t have that ability, and it wasn’t until after I lost her that I could. People say that all things happen for a reason. Maybe you had to experience that to be in a place that you can help save hundreds and hundreds of babies through your words, your thoughts, and your emotions.

Ron Reigns:
That would be nice. I hope so. I really do.

Kelly R.:
I promise you.

Ron Reigns:
I don’t want to have another man or woman facing this same kind of thing at such a young age, and thinking that that’s the only option, and then years later looking back and regretting. Or just going through this.

Kelly R.:
Right. And it takes, in my opinion, the bravest of the brave to be real, because men always want to act like nothing bothers them, like they’re fine, they’re indestructible, and that’s not the case, and I believe that when a woman is choosing, “Do I do an abortion? Do I do adoption?” In most circumstances, it’s not just her opinion. She consults with the birth father.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And if we don’t address with that birth fathers are thinking and feeling, and we don’t let them know, “Hey, this may really bother you. This may come back to where you’re not okay years later.”

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
That you’re going to suffer these regrets, and all these emotions that you may not be prepared for, and they may hit you at a time in your life when you’re least expecting it. It could be at the birth of your next child. It could be when you’re holding your grandchild. It could be seeing a pregnant woman in the store, or it could be walking in Walmart and walking past the baby section. It could be any of those things.

Ron Reigns:
They could be a trigger, an emotional… Yeah.

Kelly R.:
Right. Again, I appreciate that you’ve been so open and honest about it, because again, for the birth fathers out there, and yes, a birth father is somebody who has conceived a child with a woman. There’s an actual conception.

Ron Reigns:
Right, kind of half the equation.

Kelly R.:
The baby doesn’t have to be born for it to still be a baby, and I think that it’s important to acknowledge that they have feelings too. I mean, it’s not just up to the woman. It’s not just her choice.

Ron Reigns:
Well, and it’s interesting, because throughout my lifetime, that’s been the clarion call of the pro-choice side, is that it’s the woman’s choice. It’s the woman’s choice. And we get that drilled in so often that I think maybe to a small degree… I’m not trying to put blame on anything or anybody else than me for the choices I’ve made in my life, but perhaps that’s why I went along with it at the time and said, “Well, it’s her choice. I really don’t have a say in this, so I’m going to support her.”

Ron Reigns:
Because you hear it on TV, it’s only the woman has the right to choose, and it’s like there were two people involved in the conception, the procreation, whatever you want to call it of the child, and there are two people, three people who will be affected long term sometimes.

Kelly R.:
You said something really powerful. You said that you felt that it was her right to choose. How has that thought process changed? Because that’s really, really powerful.

Ron Reigns:
I have my own very strong beliefs on abortion from partially my past, things I’ve seen, and I honestly don’t think it’s anyone’s right to choose that, in a way. Whether government is involved or not, that’s… I’m not going to get into the political side of this, but I honestly think it’s… Even if it’s a right to choose, it’s a poor choice. I don’t know how to put that without… I don’t want to offend anybody who has done this in the past like I have, or any… I feel like it’s a life lost that didn’t need to be. Unnecessary.

Kelly R.:
Okay.

Ron Reigns:
And in a lot of cases, most, due to a feeling of expediency.

Kelly R.:
When did you, though, as a dad, decide that it was no longer solely the woman’s right to choose? Because I do agree with you. I do agree.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I think as I watched my son grow and realized that he didn’t have an older brother or sister with him. I don’t know. I can’t really pinpoint it, but that’s kind of… I just saw my son grow, and I’m so proud of him.

Kelly R.:
Yeah, he’s amazing. So, as a woman, I have not had an abortion. Again, I was born eight days before Roe v. Wade became legal. My mother was pregnant, became pregnant when she was 15, and I was told by her over and over again she didn’t know until the three weeks before I was born, as when she found out at the doctor. I’m sure she suspected. I don’t know how you couldn’t suspect.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
I do believe there’s a very real possibility that I myself wouldn’t be here had that been an option, and I’m not sure if my birth father would have been consulted, or if he would have had a say in it. As a birth father, what do you think… What’s the best advice that you would give to a man and a woman, the woman’s wanting to do an abortion, and that’s what she is thinking is the best for their situation, what would you say to him?

Ron Reigns:
First of all, I would hope he would be more mature than I was at the time, honestly, but how do you do anything about that? But I would want him and the birth mother to look at the options, look at the choices they’re making, and see not only what they’re doing to the baby’s life, but also what are going to be the long-term effects on them as people? As a couple, or as individuals, however you want to look at it, but where are they going to be when they’re 50? Are they going to look back with regrets because they chose adoption, chose to raise the child, or chose to terminate it? Because I think if presented with the facts in a realistic way, I think that me and my first wife would have made a different choice.

Kelly R.:
Do you think that, and again, this is very personal, so thank you so much for sharing this.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly R.:
Do you think that that impacted your relationship?

Ron Reigns:
I think it did. I think we probably… I mean, I definitely wouldn’t say that that was the reason that we didn’t stay married. Who knows? Maybe deep down… I think we lost a little respect for each other, and maybe… For sure, even ourselves. So yeah. It affects our relationship. You realize how easily you terminated a life, and it doesn’t feel good. We all want to respect ourselves. We all want to look at ourselves as the good guy, or at least not the bad guy, and it’s hard to do that after you make a choice like this.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. I think that one of the purposes of these podcasts are educating men, and women, and society in general, that birth fathers are important. That they do matter. And the focus is very much placed on the woman’s right to choose, the woman’s right to choose, and I do agree that the birth father will carry as much emotionally, obviously not physically, but emotionally, mentally, the weight of the decision, as much as the birth mother. Because it takes two to make a baby, and that being said, the ramifications affect both.

Ron Reigns:
And I think, again, earlier I talked about how it’s been drilled into our heads that it’s the mother’s choice, it’s the mother’s choice, and I certainly don’t want to come across as saying, “No, it’s not the mother’s choice. It’s the father.” No. It’s two people who kind of made their bed.

Kelly R.:
It’s their choice.

Ron Reigns:
It’s their choice. Whether as a couple, or as individuals who had had a one-night stand, or whatever it is, I think just as the birth mother deserves the respect to make this choice, so does the birth father.

Kelly R.:
Right, and we don’t ever hear on the news, on society, it’s the father’s right to choose. We don’t ever hear those words.

Ron Reigns:
Right. As well we shouldn’t. We should be offended if they say, “No, it’s the father’s right to choose.” Just as I think we should be a little bit offended that it’s just the birth mother’s right to choose.

Kelly R.:
Right, and I do agree with that. You see it’s her uterus, and it’s her this, but it’s their baby.

Ron Reigns:
Right, and it’s their emotional well-being, possibly for the rest of their lives.

Kelly R.:
Sure. Sure. I really hope that if there are listeners out there that are facing an unexpected pregnancy, an unplanned pregnancy, or maybe have found themselves in a position where they cannot parent, I really hope that adoption is placed on the forefront, and really looked at, and that is what these podcasts are geared to do, is to really provide information that you may not find elsewhere.

Kelly R.:
Birth fathers matter. That needs to be on the forefront, I think, of a lot of people’s minds, because the attention given to birth fathers with regards to abortion is almost nil.

Ron Reigns:
What do you think of society putting it solely upon the birth mother? Do you think it would be better from a social worker standpoint to have two people to making a decision? Because maybe you make a little wiser decision with another person involved, and you can stand firmer with the choices you’ve made, as opposed to one person going, “I hope this is right.” I don’t know, I’m just curious.

Kelly R.:
100%, because in adoption, both people have to consent. A birth father has to be served, but he has 30 days to go to the court. In the state of Arizona, he has 30 days to go to court and file paperwork to contest the adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
So, it does take two people. With an abortion, you don’t have to have the consent of the birth father.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
So, in the state of Arizona, you do have to have parental consent if you’re under the age of 18 to obtain an abortion. However, you do not have to have the consent of the biological father of the baby.

Ron Reigns:
The biological father is completely cut out of the equation.

Kelly R.:
Correct, because again, the focus is on the woman’s right to choose. Whereas as a society, those that want to promote life absolutely believe in the unity in the decision, which is why adoption provides that.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And parenting, so choosing to parent, or choosing to place a baby for adoption, requires both parties.

Ron Reigns:
And it should.

Kelly R.:
And it should.

Ron Reigns:
In all three cases it should.

Kelly R.:
Absolutely. One study that I read suggests that 33% of women who have had an abortion develop an intense longing to become pregnant again, to “make up” for the lost pregnancy. 18% of these women succeed within a year of their abortion. My biological mother had me. She didn’t have an abortion. They weren’t legal. But she did go on to have my brother almost immediately, so I… She was 16 and four months, four and a half months, years old when she had me. And then had my biological brother on her 18th birthday, so she did the same thing in essence.

Ron Reigns:
Just a year and a half later.

Kelly R.:
Well, she had him, so she got pregnant again within nine months of having me, so she would fall… Even though it was an adoption.

Ron Reigns:
And not an abortion.

Kelly R.:
She fell into that category as well. Was that the circumstance that you experienced after you had yours?

Ron Reigns:
Honestly, no it wasn’t. It was a few years later. It wasn’t like… Trying to think how old I was. It was about two years later, so it was fairly soon, but not… And at that point, we were ready to get married, or so we thought, and ready to raise a child. Yeah. It wasn’t immediate, but it wasn’t that long, either. Sorry. I’m very distracted today.

Kelly R.:
No, you’re doing fine. You’re fine. I also believe that women that do experience aftermath of having an abortion may not always attribute triggers or factors that may come into play later on to the fact that they had an abortion. And they may not think, “Oh, wow. That is a trigger because of this, or that is a trigger.” You’ve talked about your son not having a sibling.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly R.:
And that being the case, do you think that before you really came to terms of your experience, that there may have been triggers with that?

Ron Reigns:
You know, I hadn’t really thought of it that way. There’s one incident in particular, and I rarely cry for movies. They’re movies, you know. And there was one movie, it was when… I had watched it when my son was very small. I don’t know if you’ve seen it. It’s called My Life. It’s got Michael Keaton in it, and Nicole Kidman, I believe. It’s been a long time since I saw it.

Kelly R.:
I believe I have seen it. I don’t remember it specifically, but I do believe I have seen it.

Ron Reigns:
All right, well, the premise of the movie is Michael Keaton finds out he’s got cancer, and his wife is pregnant, and then, so he’s making this video tape for his son to know who his father was when he’s born. At the very end, the little boy is watching the TV, and he touches the TV and says, “I love you daddy.” Or something that just set me off, and thankfully I was alone in the apartment at the time, and I’m watching this alone, bawling, just uncontrollably, sobbing. Like you say, the ugly cry. Because of this movie, and I always thought because I had developed this appreciation for how I feel towards my son, how much I loved my son as a little baby, and still do, but who knows? Maybe deep down it was a sense of the loss I had because of a choice I made.

Ron Reigns:
And I never really put that together, but that’s definitely a possibility.

Kelly R.:
I can see the connection. I can see how absolutely that would be a trigger, and-

Ron Reigns:
And I don’t think I’ve seen the movie… It wasn’t a great movie, but boy that was effective. It was a good movie.

Kelly R.:
Because in your mind, was that little boy the boy that’s not here?

Ron Reigns:
Possibly.

Kelly R.:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
Possibly, or for years, I just thought of it as me thinking about John, and how much I loved him, but who knows? Maybe it was how much I could have loved a brother or sister of John’s.

Kelly R.:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
That doesn’t even get a name.

Lacy:
My name is Lacy, and I placed my daughter, Jada, two months ago. I chose adoption because I didn’t feel it was fair to her to go the route where you terminate a pregnancy, because it really had nothing to do with her. I was the responsible party, and I needed to make a decision accordingly, so because the father left when I was three-months pregnant, and I already had two daughters, I knew that was the only option really for her to have a better life, and I knew that there was a lot of beautiful families out there who can’t have kids, or for whatever reason they don’t go through that process, so I felt that it was the best thing for her, is to give her everything I could never give her, so that’s why I placed her.

Lacy:
I chose Building Arizona Families because I was in a situation where I was going to be kicked out of my house, and I was going to have nowhere to go, be five-months pregnant, and they got me in, they got me taken care of. They basically saved my life and they saved my baby’s life, because I would have been homeless on the street. They were amazing. I got in here and they took care of me, and were there with me through the whole journey, so it was a good choice. I didn’t think I was strong enough to do it, and I did it, and I’m in a really good place now. Even though it’s only been two months, I’m in a very good place, and I have a really good adoptive family who are beautiful to me, and so it can turn out good for everyone involved.

Lacy:
Building Arizona Families was… They were just supportive through the whole process. My case manager, Blaine, was beautiful. I love her, and she was there no matter what I needed. Like I said, all my needs were taken care of. I’m really glad I chose this place, and the people here are wonderful, and they support you the whole way.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry, and edited by me, Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, The Donna K. Evans Foundation, and the You Before Me campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com, and you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast or adoption in general at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. Make sure to join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption.

Ron Reigns:
For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.