Ron Reigns:

Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:

I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:

Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, The Donna Kay Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies in human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

I’m Ron rains. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Today we’re going to be talking about when families are not ready to adopt. Sometimes families will rush themselves into an adoption plan. And when that happens, you don’t always have a favorable outcome or an adoption journey that you hope to embark on when you begin your adoption plan. So sometimes we have seen families that jump into the process, even though they may not be ready to start and what can happen is there can be some marital discord between the spouses. One spouse may be ready while the other one may not be ready. We can see sometimes depression, anxiety, or panic between one or both of the spouses. In the end, even if it is a successful adoption endeavor, we can also see that they’re not as satisfied with their journey as they might have been had they waited for a time when they were ready to begin their adoption plan. They may have difficulty engaging in the adoption process, bonding with the birth mother, really being present for their adoption journey.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

One last piece I want to address about rushing into an adoption plan when you’re not ready, you may find yourself making decisions that you would’ve made differently had you waited until you were ready to begin the adoption plan. You may be happier in the end with the choices that you have made ranging from your placement preferences, to your post-adoption communication preferences, to how much interaction you have with your birth mother. A lot can be contingent on the state of mind that you’re in and the place that you are in your life when you are going through your option journey. We’re going to talk about this today because if adoption is on your heart and it’s something that you and your family or your spouse want to start, we just want to make sure that you’re ready and prepared, not just financially but emotionally, mentally, and that you have the tools that you need to gauge whether or not you are ready to begin.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Some areas where couples may not be ready to begin the adoption plan would be the funding. Is your funding source secure? Have you set aside the full amount plus some for your adoption plan? If you’re applying for grants, have you started the grant process? Have you been selected to receive any grants? If you don’t have your funding yet, or a plan for your funding, that’s something that I would encourage you to have a more secure hold on before you do begin and just think that, oh, it will magically appear.

Ron Reigns:

It’s important what you brought up, not just to have the exact amount you need for the adoption process, you want to have a little cushion because things never go as you expect them to go. So having a little bit, it’s kind of like I tell my son, you don’t want to just have in the bank what you need to get by month by month, want to have a cushion so that when something happens that’s unexpected, you are prepared. And that’s huge.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It is. And what I have found is families that have their adoption expenses, they look at the number and they’re right on. But where I have seen unexpected expenses creep up is not even necessarily paid to the adoption attorney or the adoption agency, it’s things like the price of flights has gone up. Your paperwork is taking longer than expected going through ICPC and you now have to stay in a hotel for another two weeks, and then you have to pay for the rental car and it was more expensive because you have to eat out versus cooking in your hotel room. So, it’s little things like that that you may not expect. We had a family last year that came out, the birth mother was being induced and the doctor had set a date, the hospital, everything, and then at the last minute those plans changed and the family actually had to wait an additional 10 days and that was on the front end. And so, those kind of expenses seem small in the scope of the whole adoption fees, but they’re not when you really get into it.

Ron Reigns:

Right. And your life is still happening at the same time. I mean, your car all of a sudden breaks down, where did that come from and what are you going to do about that? So yeah, that’s vital that you have a good plan ahead.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. Another big area that is very important to really look into and do some soul searching and counseling is unresolved grief. So over the last 16 years, I have seen families that have tried infertility treatments and they weren’t successful. That is very stressful in and of itself. When you get bad news from a fertility doctor and they say, “These just aren’t working. I would recommend you try something else where you have a better chance of becoming a parent,” I have seen families literally have a knee jerk reaction and that afternoon are calling agencies and so forth and wanting to jump into a program because sitting with the grief of that appears at that moment to be too painful. And so, if they’re not pursuing one avenue they want to immediately shift into the other. I don’t think there’s anything wrong at all with starting to do some research, but you still have to resolve the grief over not being able to have a biological child if that’s what you were aggressively pursuing and not be able to experience a pregnancy.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And those are really difficult things for a lot of people. And again, if one spouse is still in the mindset of, “Wow, I’m still grasping the fact that we’re not going to be able to have a baby through fertility treatments, and now we’re looking into adoption,” and their head is still spinning, and sometimes as hard as it is you really have to resolve that grief and then begin the process. And that’s probably the most important point throughout this entire podcast, because I have found that adoptive families that don’t resolve their grief prior to coming into the program will have a much harder time bonding with that birth mother. When they’re invited to go to doctor’s appointments, they either don’t want to go or they reluctantly go and that gives kind of a bad vibe to the birth mother who wants to share this.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

She hasn’t experienced the pain and the loss and the trials and tribulations of fertility treatments. So when she’s inviting you to come to her appointments and hold her hand during the ultrasound, she’s giving the best of her. And when an adoptive family is not able to meet her where she is, that can cause the bond to not happen and that can have negative repercussions because as you’re going through an adoption journey and you are bonding with your birth mother, you are formulating a relationship that if you have an open adoption, you will have for the rest of your life, as is she. And so, you are in essence cheating yourself, cheating your spouse, and cheating your birth mother of a relationship that you could have. This is again where we have seen some issues develop in an adoptive family’s marriage when an adoptive mother, let’s say, she was the one who decided, “Oh no, we’re not going to do any more fertility treatments. We’re going to shift gears. We’re going to go straight into adoption.”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And the husband may still be spinning like, “Okay, this is a total change of plans. What are we looking at?” And here the adoption agency is saying, “Okay, your birth mother wants you to at least be on FaceTime for the ultrasound so you can find out the gender,” and the adoptive mother is like, “Ooh, that’s hitting too close to home. I’m not ready to see an ultrasound with the baby.” And then the husband is thinking, “Okay, well we don’t want to lose the birth mother if we don’t show up for the ultrasound.” So now, we’ve got this mess. And if you can find it in yourself to find peace in where your life is taking you, you will be happier. You’ll be able to enjoy being at the ultrasound. It’s something that you wouldn’t want to miss for anything. You will be able to really connect with the birth mother and touch her stomach and feel the baby move and talk about all those amazing things that are happening to the child that she is giving to you.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And again, if you’re still struggling with resentment and bitterness that she is pregnant and carrying a child and placing that child for adoption when you were unable to have a baby and parent your biological child, that’s really tough. That’s really, really tough. And there are amazing support groups out in the community, in any community really, where couples that are faced with fertility issues are able to go and get support. Again, not rushing into one program is beneficial for everybody. When you are embarking on a journey through fertility treatments or adoption, you need to have a very strong bond with your spouse. And in the next episode we’re actually going to talk about this, but you need to build that foundation so that when times are tough and it’s three o’clock in the morning and you’re awake and you’re worried that something’s not going to go right, or you’re anxious about something, you want to be able to be in a place in your marriage where your husband is, or your wife, is in the same mental space as you so that together you can be this unbeatable team.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And there’s a lot of studies that show that the best thing that you can do to really solidify your marriage so that when you are faced with rainy days, you are able to open your umbrella and walk where you need to walk but that takes work. When there is discord between the spouses, there is some level of unhappiness and anxiety and worry that any spouse would have to focus on because you want to be in a good place with your spouse. Again, that’s going to take away from your adoption journey. That’s going to split your focus. And as we talk about when families aren’t ready to adopt, we want to make sure that they are in the best place possible. Another thing is, if a family hasn’t done education about adoption, it’s really important to do so to understand… adoptions look very different today in 2020 than they did in the seventies or sixties or eighties, nineties, it’s changing and evolving.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

We’ve got so much research and data that wasn’t available decades ago. And when families are not familiar with adoption and what is available, we see it right away and it’s our job as an agency to educate you, yes, but you have to have some foreknowledge so that you can go into a program and understand what we’re trying to explain so it’s not completely foreign. If you are having difficulty conceiving your own biological child, you have some choices. You can choose fertility treatments. You can choose adoption. You can let nature take its course and in time you will either have a biological pregnancy or you won’t. Or you can choose to not have children. And those are very difficult choices. There’s not, in my opinion, an easy answer, but it’s one that I would recommend if you and your spouse are not on the same page to see a counselor and work with a counselor together before making any of the four decisions.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

When you’re not on that same page with your choice that you are choosing, it’s important to look at why. And when I mean why, is it the path that one spouse wants to take over another spouse or is it the amount of the level of importance it is to become a parent? Or is there some ulterior reason that maybe you’re not aware of that your spouse wants to take a different avenue or not take an avenue than you do? Again, this is where counseling is so important. Families that have had to seek fertility treatments or chose to and were not successful, again, this is where a counselor can help you process grief and help you make a decision about what to do next. Some obstacles when you are deciding about adopting again would be funding. Fertility treatments are very expensive and when you are coming off of a fertility treatment and adoption wasn’t your first choice, and you’re looking at it as a default choice, think about the fairness in that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

No birth mother would want to be a default choice. That doesn’t mean that you would have to choose adoption first. What it means is that when you are choosing adoption it should be at that moment your number one choice, and to get in a head space to where you are is vital. So again, obstacles that you’re going to be facing are funding, accessibility, if you’re choosing adoption is one spouse in the military? Are they stationed at a remote location? That can create some challenges. What about feasibility? Is there insurance restrictions if you are going to be adopting your child? If you are continuing with fertility treatments what is their effectiveness with your body chemistry? Family support, do you have your family’s support or lack of family support?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Society, family, friends, pressure, when you’re looking at this is there anybody in your circle that has adopted, that is familiar with adoption, that has walked that path? Are you going to be able to get time off of work, sick time, Family Medical Leave Act? If you’re self-employed are you going to be able to be gone for a period of time when the baby is born? These are all things that you really need to consider. We’ve had situations where a baby’s born prematurely and the adoptive family says, “Well, we weren’t prepared for that. We weren’t expecting that to happen.” And when you’re in an adoption, even though you are not the one that is pregnant, that is still intended to be your child. So biologically, if you were carrying this baby and you had the baby early, it really wouldn’t be any different.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

When you are looking to begin an adoption plan these are the following steps that I would recommend. Making the conscious decision to adopt by considering the following: your funding source, the child or infant preference, and then whether you’re going to use an agency, an attorney, or try to do this independently, I would recommend that you begin researching adoption options that you have, again agencies and attorneys, speaking with family or friends that have adopted and attending adoption information seminars. These are really good starting points so that you can slowly introduce yourself into the world of adoption. Then choose what type of adoption and entity that you would like to pursue, whether it is domestic newborn, international, foster care, foster to adopt, whatever path is the right fit for you and your family. Then it is completing a home study and then picking an adoption entity.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So, picking the agency that you’re going to do your actual adoption through if it is not your homestead. So, lots of states don’t have as friendly of adoption laws as other states and so families from one state will get certified in their state, they’ll get their home study done, and then they’ll choose an agency or an attorney in a different state and that’s the entity that will actually find the birth mother, work with the birth mother, and do all of the work on the end of the adoption rather than just the homestead. And lastly, the biggest signs that an adoptive family is not ready to begin, I would say, are unresolved issues regarding failed fertility treatments, a previous failed or disrupted adoption, discord in your marriage over the choices that have been made to date, and if everybody’s really not on the same page. If you have a spouse that is kind of going with the flow and along for the ride, that’s not going to have the same…

Ron Reigns:

Well, they’re not going to be as emotionally invested and active in it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Well it’s not just that, it’s really unfair to the spouse and to the child that you would like to adopt to not have the spouse on the same page. When we do adoption home studies, both parties are interviewed separately because we have to do our due diligence in making sure that both parties are wanting and ready to adopt. And I will tell you having done dozens of home studies, there are times where when one spouse is being interviewed, their feelings, emotions, and what they’re saying are diametrically opposed to what the other spouse has stated. And it’s really easy to pick up on when a spouse has been coached prior to the interview and it’s important for us to make sure that both parties are both ready and wanting this because again, placing a child in a home where one spouse is so into the adoption process and wanting to become a parent, wanting to do this, and the other parent has burned out and that’s not where they are anymore.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And they’re not ready to jump back into the fire, if you will. So, we’ve also found that families that have had disrupted adoptions or failed matches, some of them want to jump back in and they do have that personality and mindset to where they are able to try this again. Just like a family that has had a failed infertility treatment and then they jump back in and do that again. Some have had what they consider a harder adoption failure or adoption match, and they’re really grieving over it, and those families need to take some time and then come back into the program. Because again, we’re going to see them coming in angry. When we have families that come to us after working from another agency where they weren’t successful in becoming parents, they don’t come in with the same attitude and demeanor when they’re unhappy as when other families come in. When they come in, they are more aggressive and they’re bitter and they’re questioning everything and they feel slighted, but we didn’t work with this prior family and we don’t have all of the ins and outs of what occurred.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And so when they come in like that, and they are just so unhappy with what has happened previously, it sets a tone for their adoption journey that I don’t think that they would really want to come across as. So again, and this is where I would recommend counseling. There’s lots of counselors out there that can really assist you in moving forward and resolving your grief. Even during COVID you can do online counseling, virtual counseling. That doesn’t mean that you have to wait. We as an agency, to date, haven’t slowed down all in terms of how many adoptions we’re doing or how many families are coming into the program. COVID hasn’t stopped families from continuing to build, but we want to make sure that you’re ready. Again, we don’t want you to be overly concerned to the extent that it’s not normal in an adoptive family because you have been, what you feel was, burned before by another agency or by a birth mother. We want you to be in a place that you have resolved that grief and that you can enjoy this to the best of your ability.

Ron Reigns:

So, when a couple comes into you as an agency and they are aggressive, and you can tell that they’ve got unresolved issues that they need to take care of, what do you tell them? What do you recommend to them personally when they come in? Do you just say, “You need time.”?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Not even just time, really more counseling, because when you have a really good counselor it’s not a process that has to take years or six to 12 months necessarily. It’s really taking that time and working with your counselor and processing those emotions and being able to find peace and close that door so that another door can open. So, we recommend counseling. If we have an adoptive family that presented initially like they were ready to begin another adoption or begin adoption after having failed fertility treatments, and everything’s going well in the beginning and then they start to get nervous and we start to see some of the signs kind of creep up during their adoption journey, we do recommend counseling. Obviously they’re matched at that point and they’re working with their birth mother and we just have to point out that unfortunately, some of the things that they have been saying, or their mannerisms with their birth mother or with their case worker, or their comments are not being well received.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And so, everybody would be best served if they could work on themselves so they can be ready for when their baby comes and they can start enjoying every moment of their journey. Again, some of these birth mothers have, many birth mothers have not placed a baby for adoption before and so this is their journey too. And when an adoptive family is on this journey and they’re carrying so many emotions with them and they’re angry and they’re resentful that they’re not the one that is pregnant and they’re not the one who gets to experience the baby kicking inside of them, and they’re angry at the birth mother because she’s able to do something that they can’t, but they’re also grateful to her, those feelings come out in things that are said and the consistent or inconsistent communication that you have with a birth mother.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And those are really important because you’re not just cheating yourself out of a beautiful experience, you’re cheating your birth mother out of one, and she didn’t do anything wrong. And so, it’s important to make sure that you’re able to be present in the moment and this is something exciting, and you don’t want to rob yourself of this time because as beautiful as an adoption is when a baby is born and handed to you and you meet your son or daughter, the journey is just as important. And so, in order to make sure that you are smelling every rose along the path of your journey you need to make that you are emotionally ready to do so.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112. That’s (623) 695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at AZpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song, I Dunno, as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:

And, I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:

Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I can think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency,The Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And, I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:

Today, on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, we’ll be discussing some sensitive issues that may not be suitable for younger children. The CDC defines sexual violence as a sexual activity when consent is not obtained or not freely given. It is a serious public health problem in the United States. Sexual violence impacts every community and affects people of all genders, sexual orientations and ages. Anyone can experience or perpetrate sexual violence. The perpetrator of sexual violence is usually someone known to the victim such as a friend, current or former intimate partner, coworker, neighbor or family member.

Ron Reigns:

Ever 73 seconds, an American is sexually assaulted and every nine minutes, that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only five out of every 1,000 perpetrators will end up in prison. One out of every six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. And, nine out of 10 victims are female.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So, today we’re going to be talking about sexual violence and its impact on pregnancy and adoption. Sex trafficking is a type of human trafficking which also falls underneath the category of sexual violence. It’s one of the types, as we just learned, of sexual violence. We’re not going to focus on the topic of human trafficking today because there is so much to discuss in and of itself regarding other aspects of sexual violence [inaudible 00:02:45] that way we can make that its own podcast because that is such a huge and prevalent issue that we see amongst birth mothers in the adoption world.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

According to the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000, sex trafficking is defined as the recruitment, harboring, transportation, provision, obtaining, patronizing or soliciting of a person for the purpose of a commercial sex act. It involves the use of fraud, force, coercion, to make an adult engage in commercial sex acts.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So, because we are talking about adoption, which we get to by the course of pregnancy, which… Why we get… You know, we… To get to pregnancy, there has to be a sexual act.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Therefore, adoption is impacted, affected, by so many good aspects and so many bad aspects of how we got from point A all the way to point Z, point Z being a finalized adoption. And so, what we’re looking at is the pre-stage of before birth mother actually gets pregnant, what some birth mothers have endured in their lifetime or even during the act which resulted in a pregnancy which resulted in the adoption.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So, in looking at that whole scope, I will say that in speaking with birth mothers for the past 16 years, I do hear stories of sex trafficking. I do hear stories of women that have been sexually abused and raped, and it is, to this day, an exceedingly, as it should be, sensitive subject.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

[inaudible 00:04:45] Many, many women have a very difficult time talking about it and I think that part of that is when you’re talking about an experience that you’ve had, in a lot of aspects, you’re re-living that even through your mind, going through the details of what happened. And, another aspect of some women not wanting to talk about it can be [inaudible 00:05:09] from they’re afraid that they’re not going to be believed or they’re afraid that they’re going to be made to think that it was partly their fault or they’re going to be made to believe that, yeah, they did something wrong. And, that’s really hard because as society has become more educated, stereotypes and the way that some things are looked at, there’s not enough attention, awareness, brought… It’s not as caught up as we are in the education part. So, we’ve got to catch up.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And, make sure that these women feel supported. I know that personally when I have spoken with women about a situation such as rape, it takes a long time for them to kind of warm up in the conversation and be comfortable talking about what happened. And so, as we go through this podcast, we understand that sitting here and talking about something that is a horrific crime against a woman or even a man… We’re talking about it because we want to spread awareness and we’re not being cavalier or we’re not, you know, just talking about it as an entity. We do have as much compassion and empathy for anybody who’s had to go through this.

Ron Reigns:

And, while it is hard to talk about, I mean, the numbers are unbelievable. Nearly three million women in the United States experience a rape-related pregnancy during their lifetime, and I’m sure you deal with quite a few of those.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

We do. We do. One of the main issues that I see that I wish was different is a lot of women do not report rape to the authorities.

Ron Reigns:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

They… Again, fear of judgment, retaliation. They’re afraid of what will happen if they’ve been threatened by the perpetrator. And so, it is… It’s very hard to get them to feel safe so that they will report it because I think if we could have accurate numbers of what is really happening, I think maybe then legislation would change and we would look at this differently and it would become more of a hot topic and more… And… And, it would gather more attention and people would fight for people who are victims, both women and men. Almost three million women. That’s a lot of women. A lot of women.

Ron Reigns:

And, like you say, that three million is probably under-reported. It could be twice that or who knows, more.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Absolutely. One other aspect that I found so sad was that women raped by an intimate partner who reported having a rape-related pregnancy were significantly more likely to have experienced reproductive coercion compared to women who are raped by an intimate partner but did not become pregnant, and that’s reported by the CDC.

Ron Reigns:

So, now, what does that mean? Reproductive coercion. Does that mean being coerced into having an abortion or having the baby or…?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Reproductive coercion is a form of sexual violence that involves exerting power and control over reproduction through interference with contraceptive use and pregnancy pressure. So, the biggest issue is not only was this woman a victim of rape, but then she was repeatedly victimized through not only the possibility of additional rapes but other areas surrounding contraceptive use and pregnancy. So, again, this is just showing us that women matter and as do men. But, we need to pay attention to what’s going on in our society. And, yes. These very women are, many times, the women that walk through an adoption agency’s door. These are the women that have pushed past the idea of getting an abortion and are choosing adoption, even though they’re dealing with all of the mental issues and depression and all of these mixed emotions that come having been a victim.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

What was really interesting is in 2000, Elliott Institute study published some findings that nearly 80% of women who aborted their children after rape reported that the abortion was the wrong solution and that it only increased their trauma. None of the women who gave birth to a child conceived [inaudible 00:09:59] according to this study expressed regret or wished they had aborted instead. That speaks volumes.

Ron Reigns:

That is powerful.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

That is powerful. It goes on to also state… And, this is really important and if our listeners hear anything in this podcast or remember anything, this is the one thing I want you to remember. The Elliott Institute study also states that 43% of rape victims who aborted their children reported being pressured or strongly directed by family members or health care professionals. In almost every case where a minor victim had an abortion, the girl’s parents or the perpetrator made arrangements for the abortion. In several cases, the abortion was carried out against the victim’s expressed wishes, and in a few cases, without her being aware that she was pregnant or that an abortion was taking place.

Ron Reigns:

That is shocking to me. I mean, didn’t even know. How? I can’t wrap my head around it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And… And, again, this isn’t something from 1940 or 1960 or 1980. This study was published in 2000.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

This is… This is in the realm of current.

Ron Reigns:

Yeah. This is..

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So…

Ron Reigns:

The modern era. This is after the internet has been born.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. In learning this, I think it is tragic that we take somebody who’s been a victim and continue to victimize them. And, this would be another example of reproductive coercion because here, she’s pregnant and now coerced and forced to have an abortion, regardless of what her sentiments or feelings are.

Ron Reigns:

Right. Right. It’s amazing. Yeah. Now, she not only has the perpetrator of the original sin, the original crime. Now, she’s got family members and doctors victimizing her again, just like you said.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Correct. According to personhood.org, the abortion industry has a track record of pressuring sexual assault victims to abort in covering for rapists and traffickers and who bring their victims to abortion facilities. I guess these are the facts that I don’t think the common layperson is aware of.

Ron Reigns:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

You know, when people are marching and chanting pro-life, it’s my uterus, it’s… You know, it’s my choice, it’s my, it’s my, it’s my.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Who are you fighting for?

Ron Reigns:

Certainly not the child.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. And, with these statistics, are you really fighting for the mother?

Ron Reigns:

No, because it hurts everybody involved.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Again, none of the women who gave birth to a child conceived in rape expressed regret or wished they’d had an abortion instead.

Ron Reigns:

I can understand a woman who’s been raped not wanting to raise that child. I understand that. There’s a lot of pain associated with it. But, that’s, again, where adoption comes in.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Correct.

Ron Reigns:

And, it’s so often the forgotten option when it comes to this.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Agreed. When nearly 80% of the women who aborted their children after rape reported that abortion was the wrong solution and it only increased their trauma, this is where we need to really look at what messages we’re giving people.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And, we talked about this over and over again during our podcast, that abortion is not the answer. We’re seeing that over and over again. I actually worked with a woman this week and in speaking with her, she stated that she had had an abortion at a very young age.

Ron Reigns:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And, regardless of what had happened to her during the rest of her life, she would never, ever, ever have another abortion. And, it wasn’t the quick fix that she thought it was. It wasn’t the answer. And, she was very young and one of the things that she said that I will always remember is that she had had a family member who had had a baby a couple months after she had had an abortion and that made the pain of her choice so incredibly difficult.

Ron Reigns:

It just magnified it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It did. And, when we hear from women who’ve had an abortion and they come out and they say, “Look, this traumatized me. This… This was not the answer.” The more women that find that courage to speak up and say, “Hey, don’t make the same choice I made. You’re going to regret it. This isn’t the right choice. I wish I hadn’t done this,” I feel that people will look more towards adoption or maybe reconsider parenting because if we have those two choices as options, whether parenting or adoption, and removed the abortion piece, I think that we would have a lot more people satisfied with their choices. I think sometimes people will come and say, “But adoption is a hard choice, too.” And, it is. It is a very hard choice. But, it’s a choice that you can live proudly with. You can… You can look somebody in the face and be proud.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And, if we support these women as a society, not just in the adoption community, and we look at it like the gift that it is, I really think that… That we will slowly start to change how things are viewed and maybe rather than being pro-choice being looked at it as being able to have the right to make the decision over your own body and being able to choose for you what is best, maybe we can start to understand that we’re talking about not just your life but somebody else’s life as well.

Ron Reigns:

You know, and actually, the way you put that, it made me really think about… Because, we do. We celebrate people who adopt children. We celebrate Madonna when she goes out there and adopts children and the Pitt-Jolies and everybody else and we celebrate that. But, all too often, that birth mother that is allowing this to happen and making this happen, she’s not a celebrity. You know? And so, we’re not giving them their due in the light of public opinion.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right, which is why Building Arizona Families, we started the campaign You Before Me.

Ron Reigns:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Because they should be celebrities.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

They should be honored and celebrated and revered and put on that pedestal because without them, so many couples wouldn’t be able to be parents and so many children wouldn’t have the opportunities that they do have because of adoption, like myself.

Ron Reigns:

Sure.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

The opportunities that I was allowed and given because my mom made the choice of placing me for adoption. I think it’s just incredible and I really hope that this does make an impact. There was a study done by the Annals of Health Law in 2014 which states the prevalence of forced abortions is an especially disturbing trend in sex trafficking. Survivors who participated in a study said that they had significant contact with clinical treatment facilities, most commonly Planned Parenthood, while being trafficked. They also reported that the traffickers often chose Planned Parenthood to provide services because they didn’t ask any questions. No words, Ron?

Ron Reigns:

Absolutely no words. This… It’s tragic and it kind of takes my breath away, hearing it. And, I just re-read it to make sure I heard it right because logically it didn’t click in my head, you know?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yes.

Ron Reigns:

Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I do. I find it… I find it hard to conceptualize, understand, and I have four daughters.

Ron Reigns:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And, you know, having four girls, it’s something that, as a mom, you always, you know, worry about. You know, with being sexually abused or you all… You always worry about it and you always keep your eye. I mean, obviously, like I’ve said before, on boys as well. But, when… When you do have girls, I think it is… Your protective instincts as a mom come out in that aspect, you know? And, it’s so hard. I have found that trying to explain, you know, when your children are little and as they’re growing up, the precautions they need to take and the safety and what they need to do to keep themselves safe and [crosstalk 00:18:45].

Ron Reigns:

Why they can’t just wander off on their own and enjoy the world like they should be able to.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. Right. And, yeah. Yeah, that’s hard. That’s hard. The other statistic that I really want to… I really want to look at is when a woman is raped and she chooses not to parent, there is unfortunately abortion as an option and then there is adoption and what is fascinating is according to the healthresearchfunding.org, fewer than one percent of all abortions take place because there has been rape or incest involved to create the pregnancy.

Ron Reigns:

And again, that number… I… I’ve heard it before, so it’s not surprising to me, but in a way it is surprising because if you listen to the other side of the argument, you would think that 90% are due to this.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Correct.

Ron Reigns:

But it’s fewer than one percent and that’s staggering.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It is staggering. Up to 80… And then, they’re reporting that up to 85% of women who become pregnant through rape or incest choose to have their children.

Ron Reigns:

That’s a good start.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

That is a good start. Again, these numbers are so tragic and as we’re talking about them and going through them, you know, I understand that we’re reading, you know, numbers off of a paper and discussing [inaudible 00:20:07].

Ron Reigns:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But the magnitude of what we’re reading and what this really says is… Yeah. It’s… It’s tragic. It’s tragic.

Ron Reigns:

Because each of these numbers essentially represents a human life, and they say about 32,000 pregnancies result from sexual assault and rape every year in the United States. Every year.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And, they go on to say that almost 70% of sexual assaults go unreported to law enforcement officials. So, we really don’t have an accurate number.

Ron Reigns:

Right. Again, it’s hard to be accurate when they are not reporting this.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

In 2008, the Supreme Court of California upheld that pregnancy resulting from rape constitutes great bodily injury.

Ron Reigns:

Well, that’s an understatement.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

If you are in a domestic violent relationship and you are pregnant, that is a crime against two people. So, great bodily injury. I don’t know that that is significant enough. I wish that it was more.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I think the main point in this podcast that I really want to get across is that women that are preg… That become pregnant through some form of sexual violence, whether it be rape or something else, sex trafficking, any one of the categories that fall underneath sexual violence, I really want it to be known that abortion is not your only choice.

Ron Reigns:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It’s not, and…

Ron Reigns:

And, it’s very likely a choice you’re going to regret. Many women do. Most.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Many women do. And… And, really, if you could look at the situation, as hard as it is, and make a choice between parenting or adoption. studies are showing us that you may be happier with your choice long term. Also, as difficult as it is, by not reporting what happened to law enforcement, we’re not getting accurate numbers and without accurate numbers, we can’t continue to push legislation or bring more awareness or bring more… Educate more people. You know, encourage more studies.

Ron Reigns:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Without the numbers being there. And, even if it feels like you’re being victimized again, you’re helping the woman behind you and every woman wants to, in their heart, make somebody else’s life better because of your own and, you know, whether that is carrying a baby to term and choosing adoption or whether that is going through the process of filing charges against your perpetrator so that one, maybe that perpetrator won’t be able to victimize somebody else. The numbers will be higher, so people will see that this is really a problem here in the United States and it will cause more attention to be drawn to it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

The more we talk about what’s really happening, the more people can do, and again, my heart goes out to each and every woman that has had to be a victim of sexual violence. But, know that babies that are the result of sexual violence are not tainted. They’re not damaged goods. They’re… They are beautiful human beings that deserve a shot at life just like anybody else and it’s unfortunate how they came into this world or how they were conceived, I should say. But, that doesn’t mean that it’s going to hamper their life in any way or they’re not going to go on to live a beautiful, amazing, productive life.

Ron Reigns:

If you or someone you know is the victim of sexual violence, please call the National Sexual Assault Hotline. It’s free, confidential and available 24 seven at 1-800-656-4673. That’s 1-800-656-HOPE. And, the National Human Trafficking Resource Center is a national anti-trafficking hotline and resource center that serves victims, survivors and the anti-trafficking community. You can call them at 1-888-373-7888 or text 233733.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24 seven by phone or text at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.

Ron Reigns:

Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:

And, I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:

Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Family’s Adoption Agency, The Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in Family Studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

October is domestic violence awareness month. And so today, we’re going to talk about domestic violence and its impact on pregnancy and adoption. One thing we need to understand as a society is that domestic violence is not just physical violence alone. It is any behavior where the purpose is to gain power and control over a spouse, a partner, girlfriend, boyfriend, or a family member. Unfortunately, studies show us that abuse is a learned behavior, and it’s not caused by anger, mental problems, drugs, alcohol, or other common excuses, according to the Arizona Coalition to end sexual and domestic violence. So the reason I wanted to talk about this is not only to raise awareness for domestic violence but really to look at the impact of domestic violence on pregnancy and on adoptions. What does it look like? And the majority of domestic violence in adoptions is at the hands of birth mothers birth fathers.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And so we do have many of our birth mothers that are either in domestic violent relationships or they’ve been previous victims, or they’ve had some experience with it. It is not uncommon, unfortunately, too; over the last 16 years have been talking with a birth mother, and I’ve seen marks on her arm or her face. We always ask them if they’re safe if they need help. So when women come into the program, we want to make sure they’re safe. If they come in for a visit, we want to make sure they feel safe where they’re living, that they have a safe place to go. They also sometimes are open into talking about what’s going on. If it’s with what’s happening other times, they’re very closed off, and they’ll make up excuses for bruises that don’t match the story that they’re telling.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

As a social worker, we try to get them to open up and help them, encourage them to seek help, give them resources and try to help keep them safe. But unfortunately, the majority of them aren’t ready to leave their partner. If that’s, who’s the perpetrator of the domestic violence, they’re in a cycle, and it’s a vicious cycle. And it’s really hard. It’s hard to watch. I would say some of the most memorable ones I remember would be a birth mother had a large bite mark on her arm. And I asked her what had happened. And she said her boyfriend bit her because she wouldn’t get him the last dollar in her purse and.

Ron Reigns:

Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

She didn’t want to press charges. She said she was going to be done with him and then not let him come back. But we’ve had other situations where a birth mom will come in with a black eye, and she fell, but the baby’s okay, but she fell, and it’s really hard for these women because they’re caught in this cycle. And unfortunately, a lot of birth mothers have lived a life where they have witnessed it, maybe with their own parents. And so they somehow normalize it.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

What’s interesting is in the state of Arizona in the Arizona state statutes, it says if a person is convicted of an offense involving domestic violence and the victim was pregnant at the time of the commission to the offense at the time of sentencing, the court shall take into consideration the fact the victim was pregnant and may increase his sentence. It also goes on to say that, and that is included in domestic violence carries classification prescribed in this section of this title, in which the offense is classified.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

If the defendant committed a felony offense listed in subsection A of this section against a pregnant victim and knew the victim was pregnant, or if the defendant committed a felony offense causing physical injury to a pregnant victim and knew the victim was pregnant, the maximum sentence, otherwise authorized for that violation shall be increased by up to two years. It’s a start; it’s going in the right direction.

Ron Reigns:

Yeah, it’s slow, but wow, it’s better than nothing.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. It’s better than nothing. And I think taking a month and really trying to focus on awareness of domestic violence, what the signs are when you go into a hospital, and you’re having a baby, oftentimes they’ll pull you in another room, and they’ll make sure you’re safe and your partner’s safe and that you have a safe place to go.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And they’re supposed to pretty much do with everybody because it crosses all socioeconomic barriers. People just hide it. I think the reason I feel this is important is because one of the reasons that women will place a baby for adoption is because she wants the baby to get out of the situation she’s in. And I have seen women choose a closed adoption for that reason; even though she wanted to maintain in her child’s life, she wasn’t sure she would get out of the relationship she was in. And she wasn’t sure he would stay away. And so, to keep her child safe, she did what she felt was best. And it was hard, but I really respected her for it. And closed adoptions aren’t common anymore. They used to be, but they aren’t.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And the ones that are more common were the reasons are for situations such as that. Where they’re in a relationship and there is domestic violence, and they don’t want their child to be a part of this anymore. The women that are able to break out of the cycle, from what I had seen, do amazingly well. It’s really hard at first, but every day they get better. So for any of our listeners out there that are pregnant, that are considering adoption, or maybe you just have a friend or family member in a domestic violent relationship, reach out to them. Tell them no judgment, give them the information so they can reach out and get help because there is a 1(800) number you can call. You can remain as anonymous as you want to, but if you remain anonymous and you don’t press charges, it’s not going to stop.

Ron Reigns:

Now, as far as trying to get them out of the cycle, obviously calling the 800 number and talking to people.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Get resources to help you get out.

Ron Reigns:

What are some of the techniques, or how do they try to help these women to break this cycle?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

A lot of times, what they do is they will provide a domestic violence shelter. And what that is is it’s a shelter with women who, and we’re primarily talking about women. Yes, men can be victims as well, but today we’re just talking about women. And women can go to the shelter, and the address is not disclosed anywhere. Nobody will have knowledge of the address she’s at. Normally you can take other children with you, and they will help you with counseling and services and a safe place to stay. And then they reintroduce you into life. And a lot of women during that time will petition to get a divorce. They’re going through hearings regarding the abuse. And it’s really away if you’re ready to make the move; it’s a great way to go because you do have a roof over your head, and you have people supporting you that are trained in how to get away from him.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It’s almost like withdrawing from him, if you will because it can be an addiction, and that’s why they stay. And it’s a pattern. Anytime you’re breaking a cycle, that’s really hard. So if they can take the opportunity and get to a domestic violence shelter, then from there will get all the help they need. And we have had women come to us from domestic violence shelters wanting to do an adoption. And again, I think those women are so brave. I think they’re so brave. And I think they’re making a beautiful choice, and it’s so hard when you see the women that just keep going back again and again and again, and you just hope they understand that people die from this. People die from this.

Ron Reigns:

Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Studies have shown us homicide is the number one cause of death for a pregnant woman.

Ron Reigns:

That is heartbreaking.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

That is heartbreaking. The national coalition against domestic violence and pregnancy states that 50 to 75 women abused before pregnancy or abused during pregnancy, 77% of homicide victims are killed early during the first trimester. Pregnant homicide victims are more likely to be killed with a gun than non-pregnant homicide victims. When you’re reading through statistics like this, it makes you catch your breath because it’s so hard to realize this is happening here in the United States. And it’s just really hard. The National Institute of Health estimates that abusers target more than 300,000 pregnant women in the U.S. each year, adding to that number, maybe even higher, given that the reluctance of survivors to disclose abuse, especially during the pregnancy.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

When I was raised, you’re always taught a man should never put his hands on a woman and likewise, a woman should never put her hands on a man, but I think it takes it to a whole new level when there’s a pregnancy involved because there’s an innocent baby. It’s caught literally in the middle. And so I think, if you had any concerns about domestic violence or you have witnessed it, or you’ve been a part of it, call and get help. That’s what this month is for. This month is to raise awareness so people around you can start looking for signs and can start understanding you’re struggling and you need help.

Ron Reigns:

Obviously, one of the most famous instances of this was Nicole Brown Simpson and OJ Simpson. Do you think that brought a lot of light to this issue? And hopefully, brought a lot of women out of these situations?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I think it was a good start.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But I don’t think it did enough.

Ron Reigns:

Oh, no. If it’s happening still anywhere, it hasn’t been destroyed, we need to do that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And it didn’t help he was found not guilty.

Ron Reigns:

Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So again, October is national domestic violence awareness month.

Ron Reigns:

And that national domestic violence hotline number we mentioned earlier is +1(800)-799-SAFE. That’s +1(800)-799-7233. You can also call +1(800)-787-3224. They offer help to anyone involved in a domestic violence situation. They help victims as well as survivors, friends, and family members. They also provide information on sexual assault, battering intervention, and prevention programs. Please make sure to call them if you need help. Those numbers, once again, are +1 800-799-SAFE and +1 800-787-3224.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text it’s (623)-695-4112 that’s (623)-695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website@azpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks, also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song, I Don’t Know, as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:

And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Ron Reigns:

Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, The Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me Campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies in human development, and a master’s degree in education, with an emphasis in school counseling.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I was adopted at the age of three days born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:

It’s not just mamas missing their babies. In their hearts, but not in their arms, daddies do also. We remember you. We see you. We stand with you.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So today we’re doing our podcast a day early because today is the 15th, and tonight at 7:00 PM on the 15th, we’re going to be lighting a candle in the International Wave of Light campaign to help spread awareness for October being Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Today, we’re going to talk about a documentary film that really goes into details and talks with families and lets them share their story. This is so important for society because it affects pretty much everybody, including adoptive families and birth families, because the statistics are showing one in four, and the one in four is across the board, and that’s including birth families and adoptive families. And you’ve got two sets of families that are grieving the loss of one baby. So we think that this awareness foundation and campaign is so important, and that’s why we’re taking two podcasts to discuss it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So this documentary film, Don’t Talk About the Baby. When I first saw the name, I thought, “Okay, that’s an interesting title for a documentary about miscarriage and stillbirth.” And in watching the documentary, they talk about angel moms and angel dads and how important it is for you to talk about the baby. They want to talk about the baby. They want to acknowledge the loss of their child. They want to say the name of their child.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So in watching the documentary, there was one part of it that really got me. The mom had delivered her baby at 39 weeks, and the baby had the cord wrapped around the neck twice, and the baby had passed away. And when the mom had had the baby, the nurse said, “Your baby’s beautiful, just beautiful. Would you like to see the baby?” And the mom was hysterical and upset because she had known that the baby had passed away right before she delivered the baby. And she said, “Yes, please bring me my baby.” And the nurse brought the baby to her, and she said the minute she saw the baby, she stopped crying. She looked at the baby, and the baby’s skin was perfect and rosy, and she had beautiful red lips and red hair and was gorgeous. She was perfect in every way.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And she said the most meaningful thing that somebody had done for her was the nurse leaned over and said, “Your baby’s beautiful. Can I hold her?” And she said the fact that somebody acknowledged that this was her child… Yes, the baby had passed away, but this was her child… And thought her baby was so beautiful that she still wanted to hold her dead baby, that meant the world to her.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And that made me realize, okay, we need to step up and support these mamas and daddies that are struggling with this and recognize how hard it is for them and acknowledge it and acknowledge those babies, because they matter.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Ron, you and I have talked since the beginning of the podcast that we believe a baby is a baby at conception. And that being said, whether you lose a baby at five weeks, or 10 weeks, or 20 weeks, or 30 weeks, or 39 weeks, or 40 weeks, that baby matters. And that scene in that video, I would say, changed more for my line of thinking than anything has in a very long time.

Ron Reigns:

I can absolutely see that. That is powerful, and it’s heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time. It’s so bittersweet.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. That’s a good way to say it, bittersweet.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So these mamas and daddies are saying that when they have a loss, they do want you to reach out. They do want you to show up. They want you to be present. Give them a gift. Talk about the baby. Sometimes when… I think maybe it was the old school of thought, we didn’t talk about miscarriages and stillbirths, and moms that have experienced it… And I never really thought about talking about the miscarriages. Again, I felt like a failure, and so I didn’t want to talk about where I felt I had failed. I thought I had failed my baby, my husband, the siblings, everybody.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And so, in reading this and in listening to other moms, I see where they’re coming from and I agree. So there are lots of things to not say, but… Well, actually let’s go through that first. Saying, and this is… And again, in talking with adoptive moms and adoptive parents, we’re referring to you as well. Do not say things like, “I know how you feel”, because you don’t know how they feel.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Even if you’ve had a miscarriage or a stillbirth, it’s a different family, a different situation, different thoughts, different feelings. Telling them, “It could be worse,” is just adding insult to injury in my mind. “Well, at least you still have other children.” That doesn’t mean that it’s okay to lose one because you have other children. “It happened for a reason,” is another thing you do not say, or “It was God’s will,” or “God’s plan.” These are not things that are helpful. That doesn’t make a grieving parent feel better. Saying, “You can always have another one,” or “Lots of women miscarry.” Those things, again, just hurt the heart of those that are experiencing loss. They’re not helping.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Things that do help would be, “I’m listening.” “I’m sorry.” “It’s not your fault.” And I can tell you, if somebody had said those three words to me, “Not your fault,” there would’ve been no better words to say. Another thing to say would be, “This is so difficult. You’re not alone.” Or saying, “Talk to me. Tell me about the baby. What did you name the baby?”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Another scene from the documentary that I thought was so beautiful. One of the mom’s who’d also lost a baby, I don’t remember if it was the same mom or not, but that lost a baby I think at 39 weeks or maybe a little bit sooner, she said, “We had a funeral.” I didn’t know that you could do that. I didn’t know that you could have a celebration of life, but you can. Whether it’s something small and private you do in your home or whether you decide to have a regular female service, you can do that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Don’t wait too long to reach out to somebody you know that has experienced a loss. Don’t wait longer than a month. They need you and they need you now. And if you reach out and they say, “I’m not ready yet,” then acknowledge that, accept that, but reach out again. Don’t take it as rejection, just take it as they’re processing grief.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Birth parents and adoptive parents may feel very depressed, lonely, and isolated. And with birth moms, not only have they lost the baby, but they feel that they have failed the adoptive family and the baby, and they have this compounded guilt, which is why when we started the Donna K. Evans Foundation, we made a decision that if a birth mother had an adoption plan and the baby passed away, whether through miscarriage or stillbirth, they would still have the same access to all of the services at the Donna K. Evans Foundation, because their plan was adoption. Just because it didn’t happen-

Ron Reigns:

Come to fruition, right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

…doesn’t mean that they still don’t have that same opportunity as everybody else to receive the same services, because their heart was adoption and they were making a beautiful choice, and it wasn’t their fault that it didn’t happen. And so we do have women in the Donna K. Evans Foundation that have lost a baby due to miscarriage or stillbirth, and we stand beside them as well.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

In our culture as a nation, pregnancy loss and infant death has kind of been thought as a taboo subject. It’s something that we have been told… and maybe that’s why for so long, I didn’t talk about my losses, because I didn’t want to make other people feel uncomfortable, or I didn’t want to make them uneasy talking about a dead baby. I don’t know. When you experienced your loss, Ron, how did you… What did you do?

Ron Reigns:

I’m a very private person anyway, so it is hard for me to talk about personal issues with almost anybody. Obviously Lisa and I talked about it and we went through the grieving process together, but in a way we were alone in that, because we really didn’t share it with people other than people who knew she was pregnant and knew that we were very excited and anxious for this to come to pass. I mean, this would’ve been our child together, whereas John is both of our child, we both consider him our son, but we were anxious to continue building our family.

Ron Reigns:

And yeah, so I didn’t really talk to… I mean, I would tell people that knew that she had had a miscarriage, but I didn’t discuss it. And I thought it was so rare. Again, we talked in the last episode about how it’s one in four, and that shocked me. At least one in four, it could be as high as 50%. But I thought this doesn’t happen to everybody, this is because of something I did wrong. We talked about that as well. And it was hard to process without support. And now being older and hearing these things and hearing that October is an awareness month for this entire situation, it does make me wish I had known back then.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah, me too.

Ron Reigns:

And I would’ve been more willing to reach out and get counseling or talk to somebody who’d been through it or… But I didn’t. None of that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. My husband had, as I did, an exceedingly hard time with the two miscarriages that we had together. And he… To this day, it’s a very raw, raw topic. Because you’re right, it’s something that we were so excited about and we were so looking forward to our creation together because we have a blended family, so it would’ve been our first together as well. And so I can relate and that’s very hard.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I will forever wonder what the baby would’ve looked like and the temperament. And I think the unknown is what makes it so difficult, because you’re left wondering. Wondering why? How? What would it have been like for the two of us raising a biological child together? So it’s hard.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I think the fact that birth parents, adoptive families, angel mommies and dads go through a shock and disbelief period. I think the shock and disbelief is such a good term that is used when we’re talking about miscarriages and still birth, because I can tell you that I think part of me years later is still in shock and in disbelief. Sometimes when I bring it up, it almost doesn’t seem real. And then you go back and you count how old would the baby have been now? And you start thinking, your mind starts to wander…

Ron Reigns:

About what they would be like in school at this moment, or, yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And had the pregnancy gone easy, would there have been another one? Would you have stopped at one? Would you have continued? What would the household look like? And I think that that’s hard. I think anytime you look at your future, and it’s different than you had expected it to be, and that’s true with people dealing with fertility issues or failed adoption, when you are thinking ahead, oh well, this is what I thought my life was going to look like, and it’s not that at all, and it’s taken a fork in the other direction, I think it’s hard. And that’s why I think that this campaign is so important to spread the awareness because I agree with you. Had I realized that it was one and four…

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I, too, didn’t realize it was that high, and I’ve been working with pregnant women for a long time. I’d heard numbers, but I don’t think I really poured myself into the numbers in the sense that I could personally resonate with them. Because sometimes in social work you have to almost distance yourself in certain areas so that you don’t become too emotionally involved or enmeshed with clients. And so I think sometimes the longer you’re in social work, the more you can start putting up that wall in your head to protect yourself. And I think that’s what I had started doing.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So there are a lot of foundations out there to help after a miscarriage or still birth. Everyone knows, I’m sure, about the March of Dimes. There’s a really cool foundation called the MISS foundation, and what they do is they’re a volunteer based organization providing counseling, advocacy, research, and education services to families experiencing the death of a child.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

There is another foundation called the Shared Pregnancy and Infant Loss Support, and what they do is they’re a community for anyone who’s experienced the tragic death of a baby. They serve parents, grandparents, siblings, and others in the family unit, as well as professionals who care for grieving families. It’s a national organization with over 75 chapters in 29 states. Their services include bedside companions, phone support, face to face support group meetings, resource packets, private online communities, memorial events, training for caregivers and so much more.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

There’s another organization called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep, and this one is beautiful as well. What they do is they recruit, train, and mobilize professional photographers to go in and take beautiful pictures of moms and dads and their deceased babies so that they have those pictures to hang onto for forever.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My oldest daughter is 24, and at the time I had had… Right after I had had her, her godmother was pregnant at the same time as me, but I’d had the baby, and then she had her baby, and her baby died right at birth. It was a total surprise and she had taken pictures of the baby. And back then, they didn’t have the professional photographers. So what they did is she and her family members, her mom and her husband’s mom and her husband, they went into the… There was a hospital room and they would pass the baby around so that they could all see the baby, and they took pictures of the baby. And when I went over to see her, she brought out a stack of pictures. I mean, this was 24 years ago. And she handed them to me and she said, “This is the baby.”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And I didn’t know how to respond. I was speechless. So I looked through the pictures and I told her how beautiful he was, because he was. He was beautiful. And in the video, the documentary that we were talking about earlier, they said people don’t realize… They’re expecting the baby not to look like a newborn baby, but the baby looks like a newborn baby. It doesn’t… It’s just still. It was just still.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

When I was talking with my friend who lost the baby, and I said, “Was that hard? Was that hard to hold the baby and to pass the baby around?” And the one thing, and this is 24 years later, that I can’t ever forget was… Because it was like day two, I think, after the baby had died, she said, “It was just kind of hard because the baby was so cold.” And that was hard to hear.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But I think this foundation is absolutely phenomenal. The fact that for no fee, they will go in and take pictures of these mamas and daddies and babies so that they will have these for the rest of their life, and they will be able to see their beautiful baby. So Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep is the name of that organization.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

There’s also an organization called String of Pearls, and that was created to provide a nurturing and safe place for families as they navigate the path following a fatal prenatal diagnosis that will result in the death of a baby prior to, or shortly after, birth. And so they believe that each life has a story worth telling, and they’re there for support as stories are lovingly written.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So there is help out there. There are foundations that care. If you’re an adoptive family, if you’re a birth family, you matter. Your loss is every bit as important as somebody who is not in an adoption situation. Your loss and your grief are real and raw, and I hope that everybody partakes in lighting a candle if they’ve had a loss and we will never forget.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112. That’s (623) 695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.

Ron Reigns:

Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song I Dunno as our theme song.

Ron Reigns:

Birth Mother Matters In Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com.

Ron Reigns:

Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:

And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:

Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, The Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development, and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:

Here’s a quote from president Ronald Reagan. “When child loses his parents, they’re called an orphan. When a spouse loses her or his partner, they’re called a widow or widower. When parents lose their child, there is no word to describe them. This month recognizes the loss so many parents experience across the United States and around the world. It’s also meant to inform and provide resources for parents who have lost children due to miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, muller pregnancy, still births, birth defects, SIDS and other causes. One in four pregnancies end in loss. If you or someone you care about has lost a child to still birth, miscarriage, SIDS, or any other cause at any point during pregnancy or infancy, please join us in raising awareness this month because October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month.”

Ron Reigns:

In 1988, president Ronald Reagan, proclaimed October as Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month. Tragically, approximately a million pregnancies yearly in the United States end in early pregnancy loss, still birth, or the death of a newborn child. In October, Share Pregnancy & Infant Loss Support will host several events to honor and remember all those sweet babies that have gone far too soon. These events include the Wave of Light Remembrance Service and the annual Share Walk for Remembrance and Hope in St. Louis, Missouri, along with several chapter walks across the nation.

Ron Reigns:

The loss of a child stays with parents, friends, and family members forever, but it can be challenging for others to truly understand the emotional and physical impact. Events across the country take place each October and help people to better emphasize and support parents on their journey of hope. Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month enables us to consider how as individuals and communities we can meet the needs of bereaved parents and family members and work to prevent causes of these problems.

Ron Reigns:

Early pregnancy loss, still birth, infant loss. Sadly, these are deeply painful experiences that many families face daily, but they receive little attention. It may be hard to talk about, but the more open we are, the better we can serve bereaved parents. Early pregnancy loss at the most common type of loss. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, studies reveal that anywhere from 10 to 25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in early pregnancy loss. When fetal death occurs after 20 weeks of pregnancy, it’s called a still birth. These tragic deaths occur in one in 160 pregnancies. Millions of mothers and fathers don’t know where to turn for grieving support after losing a child. Bereaved families long for ways to honor their deceased babies, and October is nationally recognized as Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month. As an adoption community, we need to make sure that we are supporting all facets of life. Birth mothers are experiencing pregnancy and they too take part in the national statistics of one in four. One in four babies is lost to miscarriage or still birth. By spreading awareness, we can not only help women that experience this loss, along with their partners, but we can help the adoptive families as well, because in an adoption situation, not only is the birth mother grieving for the loss of her baby, but the adoptive family is grieving for the loss of the baby that they believed was going to be theirs. So you do not just have one or two people grieving for the loss. You have three or four people grieving for the loss of this baby.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Today in the podcast, we’re going to go over what the awareness is trying to educate people, what the goals of the nationally recognized campaign is, the foundations that support the campaign behind trying to spread the awareness. And this is an exceedingly tough topic for myself. Ron, I’m not going to speak on your behalf, but this is a tough topic.

Ron Reigns:

Yeah, and it’s very personal to both of us. We’ve both been… Well, again, I shouldn’t speak for you, but we, Lisa and I, have been through this-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And I have as well.

Ron Reigns:

…and it still hurts to this day.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It does. It’s a pain that doesn’t ever go away. We can talk about that as we get in into this. I hope that our listeners can take away, whether you are a birth mom or an adoptive family, or whether you are just somebody who believes in adoption and is listening to the podcast, that this is a really important subject. In 2020, this is still a topic that is not openly spoken about. I can tell you from my experience, myself included, this is not something that is brought up. It is something that has been under wraps for a long time with many, many people. And that’s why I think former president Ronald Reagan would so amazing when he took the steps to make this an awareness month, this topic, because it’s bringing light to darkness that wasn’t there before.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

When we’re going through this, we’re acknowledging that the loss is on behalf of both the birth parents and the adopted parents. As you stated in the article that you had read, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists revealed that anywhere between 10 to 25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in early pregnancy loss, and that’s clinically recognized, so that’s not even recognizing the pregnancies that existed before you went to the doctor. We have these pregnancy tests that are so accurate that when you’re taking them early on, if your period is a day late, sometimes even before, that a day or two, and you get a positive result and then the pregnancy doesn’t proceed. If we’re recognizing 10 to 25%, there are so many more possibilities that… I read statistics where doctors are speculating, and this is just a speculation, it could be as high as one to two, meaning… I’m sorry, 50% is what they’re saying. And if that’s the case, that’s scary and that’s hard and that’s devastating.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So the way that miscarriage and stillbirth are defined are, again… There’s a gray area, somewhat. In the United States, a pregnancy loss before 20 weeks of pregnancy is still referred to as a miscarriage. Stillbirth refers to the loss of the baby after 20 weeks. But worldwide, not all doctors agree on these terms. For example, the World Health Organization recommends a stillbirth be defined as a baby born with no signs of life at or after 28 weeks gestation.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So again, it’s so hard when parameters are not clearly defined. And I would say that, for a lot of women and men, it may be uncomfortable to talk about miscarriages or still births. I know that for me, it was very uncomfortable, because I felt… As a mom carrying a baby, the first thing you think of… First thing I thought of was, what did I do wrong? Did I have too much caffeine? Did I not rest enough? Should I not have gone for that long walk? You start second guessing everything that you’ve done, and then you blame yourself. You go through those stages of grief that we’ve talked about so many times.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I felt like a failure every time I had a miscarriage, and I have had multiple, so I felt like a failure. And when I would disclose to people that I had had a miscarriage, I did, I felt like I’m walking up to somebody and telling them, “Hey, I just failed, and I lost my baby.” And that was so hard.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I was always careful. I have four biological children. I never disclosed to more than two or three people that I was pregnant until I was after 13 weeks. And that being said, I still didn’t want to go and tell the people that knew that I was pregnant, that I had lost the baby. Mind you, nobody ever said anything that was judgemental or hurtful. It was just, as a mother, I felt like I had failed my baby, and it was really hard to accept.

Ron Reigns:

I had similar feelings. Obviously I wasn’t thinking, “Oh, it’s because I did this wrong or did that wrong during the pregnancy.” I personally got a little deeper into it and I wondered if it wasn’t a punishment for past decisions. Speaking specifically about the abortion that I partook in. So I blamed myself in a lot of ways. I thought, “Well, maybe this is God saying, ‘You didn’t want the first one. You don’t get this one.'”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I totally get where you’re coming from, because I haven’t had an abortion, but I’ve made past decisions that I wish I had done differently. And you do wonder, is this just coming back at me? Is this karma on her worst day?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Birth mothers will talk to me and tell me, “I lost the baby. Is it because I was going to place the baby for adoption? Was that the wrong choice? Did the baby not feel like I loved the baby enough? Was it because I wasn’t bonded with the baby? What did I do? What was wrong? What was…” And it’s so incredibly hard to not wonder and judge yourself and process it when the studies say that most of the time, almost all of the time, when you have a miscarriage, it’s nothing that you did. It’s not daily life. There was something either genetically or something wrong, and that’s why the baby didn’t make it. And hearing that, as a mom who has had miscarriages, that really doesn’t make you feel any… It didn’t make me feel any better.

Speaker 4:

No, not necessarily make you feel better, but it… Even in reading these statistics now and realizing that a quarter of pregnancies, or maybe more, end in miscarriages or still births, it really shined a light on it for me, because I had no idea. I’ve never talked to other people about our miscarriage or anybody else’s. Again, and maybe this October being awareness month for it, it will shine a light on it continually. Year after year, more and more people will understand that it wasn’t something you did it. This is something that does happen, unfortunately, quite often. And maybe that will relieve some of the guilt feelings that people have as far as their decisions, their lifestyles, other things like that, that it probably wasn’t anything you did.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. The other thing that I hope that the awareness campaign accomplishes is, I know when I lost the babies, I felt very alone. It was so hard to look at other pregnant women. It was so hard to hear that somebody else got pregnant. It was so hard to look at a newborn. When you lose the baby, your dreams for that baby die right along with the baby. Your hopes, your plans, the future that you have in your head projected all the way out through college and grandkids and all of that is gone.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Before people started talking about it and it becoming more… More studies came out and this awareness is being pushed, I think that the unrecognized pain that moms and dads go through, whether, like I said, they’re in an adoption situation or not, is almost unfathomable.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I mean, the mental torture that I know I put myself through when I would lose the baby, and then the silence that I would keep myself, because I didn’t go out and talk to people or tell people, I think it was just a way of maybe punishing myself that I didn’t want to, in my opinion, walk out and say, “Yeah, I failed. I did something wrong, I lost the baby.” And that’s really hard. It’s really hard. I was always so worried that I would have a miscarriage. Like I said, even with my first one, I was so worried that I just wouldn’t tell anybody until after 13 weeks. That didn’t make it any better. It didn’t change anything.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So in looking at all the research that we’ve done for the podcast, I found so much comfort in knowing that I’m not alone. And if you sit down and you talk with women who’ve had multiple children or one child even, a lot of them have been the one in four.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I think everybody feels a little bit better when they know they’re not alone.

Ron Reigns:

Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So when we’re silent about perinatal loss, we send the message that there’s no space for mourning, leaving adoptive families and birth families isolated and alone in their grief. And so, one of the goals of the Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month is breaking that silence and stigma surrounding pregnancy and infant loss. This month is meant to honor the millions, and I mean millions, of families who have experienced loss through miscarriage, stillbirth, or even infant death. It’s so hard. This is such a hard topic.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And Ron, because you and I will talk to the end of the day about how we believe in life, and we want to preserve it at all costs. This is something that we can’t fix. And even though we can’t fix it, I think we still have the opportunity to help people through a process that is of no choice of their own.

Ron Reigns:

Right. And through no fault of their own, especially.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Agreed.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So they’re saying that one in four pregnancies end in miscarriage and approximately 1% of pregnancies end in still birth. That’s a high enough number that… 1%, people say, “Oh, that’s not a big number. That’s not…” It’s one out of every hundred. That’s a lot of babies.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

There are no right words to say to an adoptive family or a birth mother when they lose the baby, but there are wrong words, and we’re going to talk about that in the next podcast. But there are so many amazing ways to honor the loss of your baby, a family member’s baby, the baby you planned on adopting, a friend’s baby, or maybe even the loss of a baby who may have grown up to be the next president of the United States, or the next doctor that cures cancer. So some of the ways that you can participate in helping spread awareness so that moms and dads out there who’ve lost a baby, know that they’re not alone.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

You can participate in the International Wave of Light campaign, and that’s where you light a candle at 7:00 PM on October 15th. There are three hashtags that you can use to share photos, and we’ll put that up on our Facebook page and all of our social media. So if you have lost a baby and you want to hashtag and share a photo, you can do that. You can join a walk or remembrance activity on October 15th. You can go to counseling if you’re somebody who’s lost a baby, or you can join a support group. And there is an amazing website and services that you can access that we’re going to talk about in the next podcast. But for all you moms and dads out there who have lost a baby to stillbirth, or infant death, or miscarriage, know that you’re not alone. And whether you were in an adoption situation or not, we’re grieving with you, and we’re going to help support the awareness.

Ron Reigns:

Both Kelly and myself will be participating in the International Wave of Light campaign in which we’ll light a candle at 7:00 PM on October 15th. We’ll put those pictures out on our Facebook page and our website and various other sources. But also, we’ll be releasing our next episode of Birth Mother Matters In Adoption on October 15th in remembrance and solidarity of those who’ve gone through this kind of tragedy.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112. That’s (623) 695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.

Ron Reigns:

Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song I Dunno as our theme song.

Ron Reigns:

Birth Mother Matters In Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com.

Ron Reigns:

Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:

Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, The Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:

Due to rating of this podcast, we’ll be using very general language. Please note that this episode may contain language not suitable for children. Since this podcast is about adoption, the precursor is pregnancy and the precursor to pregnancy is a lack of, or in effective use of, birth control. Therefore, we feel that this topic is one that we must address. According to WebMD, birth control can help people decide when they want to have children. There are many types to choose from including different types of barrier, medications and traditional methods that need no additional resources. Effectiveness varies and often depends on how carefully the method is applied. Only a male condom offers any protection against sexually transmitted diseases.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Some of the birth control myths that I talk about with women when they come into our program, there is a lot of information on the internet, in doctor’s offices, there’s folklore, I should say, that people have passed on from generation to generation. So, I really want to dispel a couple of these. Birth control is not 100%. The only 100% chance that you won’t get pregnant is if you’re abstinent. So, that’s the only 100% chance. You can get pregnant the first time you have sex, you can also get pregnant while breastfeeding.

Ron Reigns:

I didn’t know that that was a myth that you couldn’t if you were-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Oh…

Ron Reigns:

Really?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yes, yes.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Sometimes when you’re breastfeeding you don’t get your cycle. And so, because you’re not getting your monthly cycle some women think that they are not able then to get pregnant because they’re not having their monthly cycle so they don’t realize that they’re still ovulating.

Ron Reigns:

I see. Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And lastly, condoms do have an expiration date. Just about everything at this point in our lives has an expiration date. Car seats, water bottles…

Ron Reigns:

You have to look at it this way, anything that’s like a latex or rubber kind of material, it will dry out. It will become brittle. And so, you have to look at a condom the same way and know that, okay, that is not going to stay the same consistency over time even if it stays wrapped it’s not good forever.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right, right. I want to save prophylactics or condoms, whichever word you want to use, for the end when we’re talking about birth control methods because that’s the one I really want to dive into. I think that is the most controversial in terms of studies and rates of effectiveness. And that’s something I really want to dive into because that is what I would say is the most commonly used birth control method for women that we work with if they’re using a birth control method. So, I looked at two different studies and one of them was the CDC and the other one was money.usnews.com. And I know that sounds funny that you would look at birth control from that perspective, but financially I wanted to see what things were costing. And obviously when we go through these, understand that the cost and effectiveness of birth controls, even though it’s surprising, the cost is going to depend on if you have insurance, what the insurance will cover and where you’re residing in the United States.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

There’s a higher cost of living in some areas versus other areas and that will also influence the cost of birth control. So, what’s so interesting is in one study we see birth control pills have a 91% effectiveness rate. Whereas the typical failure rate is 7%, so they’re saying really 93%. So, you want to look at that as 91 to 93% effective for birth control pills. That’s not the numbers that I remember from when I was in high school. I remember those being up in the 98/99, I do not remember it being as low as 91 to 93.

Ron Reigns:

Why the change?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

User error.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Also, I would say with birth control pills it’s a hormone in most situations, it’s a hormone supplement or what have you, I’m not a doctor. We need to preface that, neither one of us are doctors. But you also need to find out which one works the best with your body and which one your body responds to the best. And so, if you have one that is not working as effectively as another one may work, I’m sure that plays into the effectiveness as well. An intrauterine device, IUD, they’re saying that there is a 99% effectiveness rate. Oh, going back to birth control pills, zero to $50 a month is the standard cost.

Ron Reigns:

Okay, is the price.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

An IUD, they’re saying a 99% effectiveness rate and the CDC pretty much agrees with that. They last for three to 12 years, depending on what type of device you’re using and they can cost anywhere from zero to 1300. The ones that we have seen and we have paid for through our adoption agency, a lot of them I think were Mirena and I think it was around $500. Don’t quote me on that amount, but right around 500.

Ron Reigns:

Now, that $500 is a one time cost for the three to 12 years, depending on what you-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Mirena usually lasts, I think, around five, but yes.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

The birth control shot Depo-Provera, you get these quarterly and they’re about $30 to $75 and they have anywhere, according to the two differences in percentages, a 94% to 96% effectiveness rate. The one thing that’s very positive, in my opinion, working with women with unplanned pregnancies is the shot. You don’t have to remember to take a pill every day. You just have to remember to go get your shot quarterly. And so, if you can remember every three months, that’s great, but a lot of women come into our office pregnant because they forgot.

Ron Reigns:

That’s fair.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

The NuvaRing has a 91% effectiveness rate up to a 93% and that costs $30 to $35 and has to be replaced every three weeks. They have a birth control patch. That one is, a monthly supply cost between $30 to $35. Effectiveness, we’ve seen the rates from 91% to 93%. So this next… Actually, we’ll skip the condom and come back to that. The diaphragm has an 88% effectiveness rate that cost between 15 to $50 and then you have to also use a spermicide which is an extra seven to $18, and the failure rate they’re saying is 87% to 88%.

Ron Reigns:

Or the effectiveness rate. Right?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. Sterilization has, they’re saying, basically it’s agreed upon it’s about a 99% effectiveness rate. It’s different costs for men and women. Men typically it’s about a thousand dollars and women it’s about $6,000. Now, what’s so interesting is that this is a 99% effectiveness rate. And I have had, I’ve worked with so far this year three women that had their tubes tied and they were pregnant.

Ron Reigns:

And are now pregnant. Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And we have the medical records so it wasn’t like they just thought that they had had their tubes tied. They had their tubes tied and it didn’t take. There is an implant that you can get in your arm that is about 99% effective according to what we’ve read. So, that’s something as well. Spermicides is something that is a 21% failure rate, so you’re looking at it is 79%. The sponge had a failure rate of 14%, so that would be a 86% success rate for women who’ve never had a baby. And if you’ve had a baby before it drops all the way down to 73% effectiveness. Like I said, in reading this, I think in comparison to years ago or decades ago, I think they were looking at if you use it perfectly every single time, whatever method you’re using, if you’re taking the pill every day, if you’re making sure that you get your shot on time every three months then you’re going to have a much higher rate.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But because there are failure rates, that’s why the numbers are so much lower, is because people are not taking the pill daily as they’re supposed to. And they’re then doubling up trying to make up for that lost pill. And so, because there are failure rates, it doesn’t mean that these methods of birth control are not as effective as they used to be, it just means that they have now factored into what in real time is happening.

Ron Reigns:

So, a lot of it is a lack of education on how to use these different methods, as well as maybe a lack of discipline on how to use these methods.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Sure, however you want to get there, user error. Yeah.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. So, in looking at the prophylactic or condom rate, the rates look like 85% to 87% effectiveness. You can get these free from clinics or you can pay as high as $2.50 cents for one, I’ve never seen one that high but that was what one of them was quoted as. But that number 85% to 87%, that’s, I mean, it’s going to rain at 85% to 87%. It’s going to rain. That’s pretty high. And so the chances, in terms of it being a failure, which is the 13% to 15%, sorry, that’s concerning.

Ron Reigns:

And I think, again, a lot of it is misinformation, misuse, not using it properly. I remember when I was young, it was like our, I don’t remember if they were teachers or whatever, but they were constantly reminding us that two doesn’t work better than one. And so at some point, there must have been that thought out there that, oh, well if I use two, if I double up I’m even more safe. It actually makes it less safe and less protective.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

They say when used properly, male condoms are about 98% effective, according to WebMD.

Ron Reigns:

Which is really good, right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Which is really, really good. But 18 out of 20 women whose partners don’t use them correctly could wind up pregnant.

Ron Reigns:

Exactly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

18 women out of a hundred, I’m sorry, 18 women out of 100 is really high. So, some not commonly known facts about condoms according to the CDC are, if you’re using a female condom don’t also use a male condom because that can cause tearing. As you said, not to use more than one at one time, and then not to use oil based lubricants like massage oils, baby oils, lotions, or petroleum with latex condoms because they’ll weaken it causing it to tear or break. In really diving deeper into the prophylactic use and some of the information that has been done, I really want to get this out there because we want to prevent unplanned pregnancies. We want to be there to help you if you have one, but we want you to be safe.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So, in looking at the Human Life International, they had some information that I again found astounding. According to their statistics, one in 14 uses results in a condom failure. The United Nation Population Fund and other global condom promoters claim that condoms have a 98% success rate instead of an 85% success rate documented in real world studies. So, there’s that discrepancy and that’s what we’re talking about. There’s that. Teen pregnancy in the US is still at really high levels, 750,000 annually. And a lot of abortions are being performed.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

All right, another fact is they cannot protect against diseases spread by skin to skin in contact like herpes or HPV. Back in the day, back when we were younger I always believed that condoms were the fool-proof birth control. That was the go-to, you were not going to have an error or an oops if you used one. So this was really just shocking to me. Was it shocking to you when you were going through it?

Ron Reigns:

I guess not because I had always heard for years that not only are they not a 100% but most of the error is from the operator if they’re using it improperly. So, I guess it was really impressed upon me that the effectiveness of them was mostly due to how you used it and if you used it properly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

According to birthcontrol.com, 18 out of 100 people will get pregnant each year if they use a condom as their only birth control method. So in diving further, some of the condom use errors are late application, early removal, unrolling it before use, failing to remove any air, using them inside out, them being punctured with a sharp object, not checking them for damage, using them twice, storing them incorrectly, having them break. So, there’s lots of ways that these are not as effective. This is an uncomfortable topic for many people to discuss. And again, we’re trying to keep this very low key because we understand that families may be listening, but these are really important topics to dive into and do research on because you want to make sure that you understand what people are doing wrong so that you don’t make the same mistake. The whole point of us studying history is to not repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

Ron Reigns:

Correct.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Well with birth control, we are making the same mistakes over and over again, and we’re not learning because we’re not teaching everybody around us. And we need to make sure that we are teaching people like Dr. Owen Morgan did at ASU in his human sexuality class, because that is key to preventing pregnancies. So then, we can take abortion off the table as what people believe is a third choice when they have an unplanned pregnancy rather than parenting or placing the child for adoption. If we can cut down on unplanned pregnancies, then we can help remove abortion and that’s a big deal and very important. So my takeaway from doing this research and learning more about prophylactic use is that if that is your birth control choice, then I would make sure that you have all the information on how to use them effectively and properly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And really make sure that that’s the best option for you and take every precaution necessary, because 15% is pretty high if you think about it. I mean, you’re talking about lives here. We’re not talking about raining outside, we’re talking about lives and that’s what’s most important. And when we talk about lives, we’re talking about babies and having an unplanned or crisis pregnancy is something that can be devastating for a woman or a man to experience and it can put you in a position that you don’t want to be in and making choices that you don’t necessarily want to have to make. What would be your best advice?

Ron Reigns:

It all comes down to a lot of what we’ve just kind of been repeating, but open discussion, proper information and educating yourself. And that goes for anybody with almost any topic too, it’s better to know more than to know less and as long as that information is the correct proper information.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. You want to go to reputable sites. You want to make sure that you’re getting credible sources and yes, it may be uncomfortable and when you look at your child and you think, “I don’t want to have this conversation with my child,” it is a better conversation to have than the alternative.

Ron Reigns:

Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

That’s what a lot of parents don’t see in that moment is sitting down and having that dreaded birds and the bees talk, yeah it’s uncomfortable. It’s awkward. You don’t want to think you’re poisoning your child’s mind and you are putting ideas in their head, but after speaking with so many pregnant teen parents that are now grandparents, they wish they’d had those talks. They wish that they had really gone into those topics of birth control and preaching abstinence. But as a parent if you’ve done everything you can to prevent your child from having sex and that’s your goal, and that’s most parents’ goals, probably all parents goals. If you can’t stop them, then protect them. And the argument with that is, “Oh no, I’m going to make sure if I think my child is going to engage in that, then I am going to homeschool them and I’m going to lock them in their room.” And that’s just not reality.

Ron Reigns:

Well, we’ve talked many times in the past about planet reality versus planet fantasy. And a lot of these parents are living in planet fantasy where they don’t think there’s any possibility of their child ever doing anything like this, but the reality is much different than that. There’s pressures out there, and there always have been, for kids to do things that you wouldn’t approve of or agree with. And not to say they’re out there doing all of them, but your best option is to teach them the right way whether it’s through you or through your school, those kids need to be taught.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

They do. And I think, again, speaking on behalf of all of the moms of teen moms, if you have done everything you can do, you’ve educated your child, you have provided every resource that you can and you have a child that experiences a teen pregnancy, there’s not going to be any going back thinking, “Oh, I wish I would’ve. I regret not,” because you’ve done everything you can. As parents, what’s so hard is there’s only so much you can do to prevent your child from experiencing heartache or pain or misery and making bad choices. Kids make bad choices. And unfortunately, as parents we want to prevent that from happening and we try and we do everything we can, but not educating your child because it’s an uncomfortable topic or because you don’t believe that your child is going to engage in an activity that you have told them over and over again not to, I think is unrealistic.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And again, this is speaking, I’m talking about this from a take of somebody who speaks with women about unplanned pregnancies every day, all day long. And women that have had their tubes tied and wind up pregnant, that’s so unfortunate because you think that there’s no way, there’s no way. I’ve had three this year.

Ron Reigns:

Three this year alone.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

This year alone.

Ron Reigns:

That’s unbelievable.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And one thing to remember too, is that at the end of the day, we’re all just doing the best that we can. So, I’m apologizing if this podcast has in any way offended anybody, know that we are, again, going on our platform of education. It’s paramount and we are doing everything we can to promote healthy people. We’re trying to show that there are amazing alternatives to abortion and adoption is a beautiful and loving choice.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112. That’s (623) 695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at AZpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song I Dunno as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome. And thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:

And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:

Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me Campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:

Due to the rating of this podcast, we’ll be using very general language. Please note that this episode may contain language, not suitable for children. Since this podcast is about adoption, the precursor is pregnancy and the precursor to pregnancy is a lack of, or ineffective use of birth control. Therefore, we feel that this topic is one that we must address.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Birth control continues to be a topic that many people are uncomfortable talking about. This stems from decades ago, when birth control became more prevalent, there were more options, and it’s important to talk about in relation to adoption, because we do work with women who have unplanned pregnancies, crisis pregnancies and pregnancies that may have been planned, but are no longer desired. Women who place a baby for adoption may return to our adoption agency to place a second baby, or even a third. A common question I get asked is, “What are you doing as an adoption agency so that women don’t keep coming back?” And we’ve talked about this in previous podcasts, and that’s why we have the Donna K. Evans Foundation.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

The other thing that’s unique about Building Arizona Families is we will pay for birth control for a birth mother after she has a baby, if her insurance doesn’t cover it. So let’s say she’s interested in getting an IUD. We will actually pay for the IUD if her insurance won’t cover it, just to assist her in making a choice so that she doesn’t have to come back and ask, because she’s gotten pregnant again, or she didn’t have the means to be able to get birth control.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Because women do come back a second time, or even a third time, I get asked the question, “Why? Why are they still getting pregnant? They know what causes it. What’s happening?” And I guess the best answer would be a lack of birth control or birth control that’s not used effectively or correctly. And when I speak with women who come to our agency to place a baby for adoption, we always talk about their pregnancy and how they got pregnant. And we talk about this, whether this is their first baby or their 10th baby, and we do talk about birth control and whether or not they were using it and whether or not, or why it didn’t work, I should say, obviously it didn’t work-

Ron Reigns:

Whether they were using it properly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. So the most common answers that I get when I ask them how they became pregnant, the answers are, “I didn’t use birth control. I forgot to get my shot,” and they’re referring to Depo-Provera. “I wasn’t planning on having sex. We don’t like to use condoms. I wanted to have kids. I thought I couldn’t get pregnant. I had my tubes tied. He told me he couldn’t have kids. We have never had to use birth control before. I thought he was going to take care of it.” And the last one is, “I have no idea.” The Guttmacher Institute did a study, and I found a absolutely fascinating because throughout this podcast part one and two, I really want to talk about what’s going on. Why are all of these women and men not using birth control?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

We have more types of contraceptives than we’ve ever had in our history. And it’s more readily available than it’s ever been. And yet, we’re still having so many unplanned pregnancies and we’re having repeat unplanned pregnancies. Even though we are an adoption agency and we’re working with birth mothers that doesn’t mean that we want them to keep having to go through placing a baby for adoption and experiencing an unplanned pregnancy. So this Institute found that there are 61 million women of reproductive age, 43 million of them are at risk for unintended pregnancy. That’s astounding-

Ron Reigns:

Unbelievable. The numbers, I went through them before we started recording. And I was just amazed by these numbers.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. They also go on to state that couples who do not use any method of contraception have approximately an 85% chance of experiencing a pregnancy over the course of a year. That’s really high. Whenever I look at percentages, I always think I relate it to the weather, and I don’t know why I do this, but I relate it to the weather. So I think if there’s an 85% chance of rain, I’m going to take an umbrella.

Ron Reigns:

Right. It’s pretty likely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It’s pretty likely. In the United States, the average desired family is two children. To achieve this family size, a woman must use contraceptives for roughly three decades.

Ron Reigns:

So in other words, to keep from having more than that too, then you’ve got to be consistent and continue to use some kind of birth control.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. Yeah. So what they’re saying is because there is a 15% chance if you don’t use contraceptives, yes. So that statistics a little confusing. They went on to say, who uses contraceptives. More than 99% of women aged 15 to 44 who have ever had sexual intercourse have used at least one contraceptive method. Some 60% of all women of reproductive age are currently using a contraceptive method. Again, these numbers are terrifying.

Ron Reigns:

Right. Only 60%. Well, I mean, obviously almost 100% of women-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

They’re not all engaging in sexual relations, but 60% of that age group is using contraceptives. 10% of women at risk of unintended pregnancy, are not currently using any contraceptive method, which means if they become pregnant, they’re going to have to choose to parent, to place for adoption, or unfortunately some of them are going to choose to have an abortion. The proportion of women at risk of unintended pregnancy who are not using a method is highest among those 15 to 19, which is 18% and lowest among those aged 40 to 44, which is 9%. This is interesting because I would say the average age of our birth mothers is low to mid twenties.

Ron Reigns:

But that statistic is kind of what you would expect. The younger, less mature people are going to be twice as likely not to use it just because they’re younger-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I wouldn’t say less mature, I would say less educated.

Ron Reigns:

Less educated?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. I would say less educated rather than less mature, less educated. If you know better, chances are you’re going to do better. That’s how theory goes. Contraceptive use is common among women of all religious denominations, so that’s interesting. Among women at risk of unintended pregnancy, 92% of those with an income of less than 300% of the federal poverty level and 89% of those living at zero to 149% of poverty, are currently using a contraceptive method, so that’s encouraging.

Ron Reigns:

It actually is, yes.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

That’s one of the reasons at our office, again, this is a little controversial, but again, safety first. So we have a basket of condoms actually in our front office because we want women to be able to take them, even if they are pregnant, to help from transmitting any sexually transmitted diseases. We want to keep them as safe as possible. If they take a handful and they’re giving them to their friends to stay safe and not have an unintended pregnancy, I think that, that’s great

Ron Reigns:

Right. Now you say that’s controversial.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It is.

Ron Reigns:

Why is that controversial?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Because sometimes in our office, we have children that are there. And so our receptionist, we’ll just have her take the basket and kind of put it where the children can’t see it. But again, our goal is to make sure that we are keeping as many people safe as possible. And some people to this day are uncomfortable talking about birth control. That’s why I said, it’s still one of those topics that people are not comfortable talking about. Because if you’re talking about birth control, you are referring inadvertently to sex.

Ron Reigns:

To sex. Certainly. But yeah, I think it’s got to be less controversial than it was in say the fifties and sixties, because then you didn’t talk about anything.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Well, I think, it’s gotten better, but I think in some ways, we’ve regressed and that’s what I want to talk about next. So back in the olden days, when I was in school, we had sex education classes where they discussed birth control in extreme detail. We had to watch a video on labor and delivery. We talked in about STPs for days and days. They scared us stupid is what I used to refer to it as, they terrified us, absolutely terrified. I don’t remember ever having the option to not go.

Ron Reigns:

Right. I believe that when I was going to school, it was the same thing, and they separated the boys from the girls. So we got different films and different education, but I believe that the parents could opt you out of it if they protested to you being taught that in school. But as kids, we couldn’t just say, “No, I don’t want to go to that class.”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. I’m sure that’s the case. I don’t remember that. I remember maybe one or two children would go to a different room and that always caused some of the kids in the class to start laughing, which I don’t know why that would be funny.

Ron Reigns:

Kids are weird like that, yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. And so now, we learned a lot back then. Back then, I feel like we walked away and we knew a lot. Nowadays, and I can say this because I’ve had many children go through middle school, they can opt out, at least at the public school my kids go to, and parents can go and preview the materials before they’re explained to the kids and they can go through everything. And that’s good on one hand, but not on the other, because if you share and this is all my opinion. If you share general information to a group of students, they’re all going to get the same information and it’s going to be correct information. If you take a third of those kids and remove them, they’re not getting the information. They’re not being given information by a trained professional, and they’re not going to have knowledge of what everybody else does. So I think some kids are at a disadvantage.

Ron Reigns:

I definitely see your point. But I also see the point of a parent saying, “This is my job to teach my children,” as long as they’re actually doing it, who knows-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

As long as they’re actually doing it.

Ron Reigns:

But yeah, so-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

You have those parents, that’ll say, “My child is not going to have sex before the end of high school. They don’t need to know this, and I don’t want to put this in their head.” And unfortunately that’s our goal, but it’s not reality. It’s not. And that doesn’t mean that we, as parents need to be like, “Okay, well, it’s fine if they do.” Well, no, it’s not fine if they do, but in the event that we’re not able to prevent it, let’s give them the mental tools so that they know how to prevent a pregnancy, how to prevent an STD so that they understand what really happens. There’s so many myths out there. There’s so many things that are incorrect. So I’m really a huge proponent of sex education in the school system, I really am. I think that that is one of the number one keys to eliminating unintended pregnancy.

Ron Reigns:

Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. And like you say, you’re getting actual factual information that’s put into a course basically. And it’s like a curriculum of, “Okay, these are the things that children need to know.” And I see what you’re saying, I really do. And I’m just saying that while I don’t agree with it 100%, I understand the parents saying, “Wait a minute, that’s a bridge too far for some random teacher to be…” And I think they’re looking at it as an opponent, somebody you’re in a fight with. And it’s like, “I don’t think that’s the case. I think teachers are genuinely there to help.” And I don’t know. Yeah, that’s tough.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It is. It’s a very touchy subject and I’m coming at it from, I am still a certified school counselor and I work with women that are experiencing unintended pregnancies every day. I have a ton of teenagers. And so I feel like I’m trying to keep everybody safe. I’m trying to make sure that we are as equipped educationally as we can possibly be. Yes, 100%, we want our kids to be abstinent until marriage. I believe that, that’s what I want for all of my children. Is it go going to be a reality? Probably not. Am I going to still preach that? Yes. But in the event, that one makes a choice that is not the same as I want them to make. I want them to be educated. And I don’t believe that sitting in an education class in school is going to make them want to go and have sex.

Ron Reigns:

I also think something you brought up earlier, I think it should be important on those parents who do object to actually go in, like you said, and talk to the teacher, see the curriculum, see what they’re being taught. And at least then, maybe make that choice. But I think that maybe that’s what should happen is if you want your child to opt out, then you are required to come in and view these materials and see what they’re missing out on.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And too, for those parents that are not in a field of working with women who are experiencing unplanned pregnancies, that are not in a medical field, that are not in a school system and you want to be the one to teach your child so that they have the information firsthand from you, make sure that your current, make sure that you understand the latest statistics, make sure you understand the current forms of birth control that are offered. Make sure you understand, because that’s why we’re diving into this is a lot has changed. I was shocked at some of the things that we’re going to go into, that are very different than I was taught when I was in high school. And Ron, you’re older than I am.

Ron Reigns:

Much

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But you’re older. So, it’s different. My undergraduate degree is in family studies and human development. And I took a pretty much famous class at Arizona State University. It was Human Sexuality by Dr. Owen Morgan. This class was known throughout the campus. It was the most popular class to get into. He was an Arizona State University faculty member from 1968 until 1999. They say during this period, nearly 100,000 students passed through his classes. He was popularly known as OM, I remember that class like I took it yesterday. And he went where no man has gone before. He took the topics that you were briefed on in high school, and he ran miles with them. You would learn more in that class, than you could even comprehend. And when you were sitting in that class, there wasn’t a moment that was boring.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

There was videos. And he had such an openness about him that there was nothing you couldn’t ask. He would do surveys that you would think, “Is that really even appropriate for him to be asking us?” But what he would do is he would have you write it on a piece of paper and he would tally him up and you pass a forward, he tallies them up and then he gives out the results and they were astounding.

Ron Reigns:

Really?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Oh yeah. Everything from first aid, how old you were at first intercourse, how many partners you’d had? It was unbelievable. But it gave us a real time perspective of our fellow classmates-

Ron Reigns:

Without actually putting names to it. Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

No, no, no, not at all. You just write the numbers and then you would pass it forward-

Ron Reigns:

And you would look at it and say, “Oh my gosh, 68% of these kids had sex before this age,” or whatever the question was. Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It was so incredible to experience something like that because it was putting everything in such a real time perspective. And there was once, the funniest moment for me in that class was they were showing a labor and delivery video, he was. And there was a student that passed out, literally passed out, in a class. And I thought at that time, that, that was kind of funny because that wasn’t what you’d expect from a college kid. You know what I mean? But it was funny-

Ron Reigns:

Traumatic for someone, got it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But we learned so much and I’m so sorry to hear that he has since passed on, but I will never forget this professor. He’s the one that if somebody has gone to Arizona State University and they were in that realm of classes. People from business classes were taking it. It was that intriguing, and yet, he did it in such a masterful way, the way he taught this class, that you were better for taking it. And that sounds weird because it was a human sexuality class. But if you go online and you read, and as I was researching for this podcast yesterday, I was researching him and a little bit more about him and there’s articles to this day about him. So I feel very lucky that I was able to be in his class.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And I think that that candor and that approachability what is lacking in society today. I think that we are so closed mouthed about the birth control, about teaching our children what this really is. And because of that, we’re doing a disservice and in that women are experiencing on unplanned pregnancies and crisis pregnancies, and that’s really, really hard.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at 623-695-4112. That’s 623-695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.

Ron Reigns:

Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song, “I Don’t Know,” as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters and Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:

And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:

Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President and Co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, The Donna Kay Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a Bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a Master’s degree in education, with an emphasis in school counseling.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother. Raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast. So

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Today we’re going to talk about cesareans, or C-sections, and adoption. A lot of women wind up having a C-section. We’re going to talk about that and what it looks like in terms of the adoption world, and the similarities and differences. Just so that we can be more versed on what is happening to the baby, the mama, when they’re in the hospital.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

According to the americanpregnancy.org, a cesarean birth happens through an incision in the abdominal wall and uterus. The normal cesarean procedure averages 45 minutes to an hour. That seems like a really long time, but not to a woman who has been in labor almost 24 hours.

Ron Reigns:

Right. So that’s you, I’m assuming?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yes. And so the 45 minutes to an hour is like, “Lucky girl.”

Ron Reigns:

Yep, absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

The baby is usually delivered in the first 5 to 15 minutes, with the remaining time used for closing the incision. According to the CDC, approximately 31.7% of all births for 2019 were by cesarean section. That’s a lot of deliveries, that’s almost-

Ron Reigns:

It’s almost a third.

Ron Reigns:

And that’s what surprised me most as I was going through the information, I was like, “Almost a third of women or of pregnancies are delivered through cesarean.” That surprised me.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It doesn’t surprise me because I work with so many pregnant women, and that sounds about right. I mean, if I was to go back and start counting on my fingers which are having natural or C-sections, then that would make sense. So yeah, that sounds right on. I will say that there’s a lot of benefits for the adoptive family, and we’re going to talk about that, when a birth mother has a C-section, because of the timing. Actually, let’s just jump into that right now.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

When you have a mom who knows that she’s going to have a C-section, she may have had a C-section in a prior delivery. Or maybe during her pregnancy the doctor has decided, and we’ll talk about some of the reasons why, that she needs to be a candidate to have a C-section. It gives the adoptive family time to schedule their flight. They know when the baby is going to be born, the timing is there. They can strategize and plan, rather than waiting for the phone call, go time, and try to catch the next flight out. And yeah. And have that one scene with Macaulay Culkin, Home Alone, when everyone’s rushing to the airport, and yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Rather than having that, if a birth mother is having a C-section it allows everybody … Everything is really neat and tidy and planned. And with the craziness of, “My water broke and I’m headed to the hospital.”

Ron Reigns:

And chaos ensues, right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

With a C-section, they normally allow one person to be in the delivery room. And sometimes it is the birth father, sometimes it is the adoptive mom. I’ve never had it be the adoptive father, just saying. I’ve never had that. We’ve had it be the adoptive case worker. Sometimes it is the birth mother’s family member, like her mom or maybe a close friend. It really just depends on who she wants to be her support person.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

If it’s the adoptive mom it’s usually because they have formed a really close bond. And then it’s sometimes between the birth father and the adoptive mom. Normally the birth father will prevail if they’re very close and in a relationship. But if not, then the adoptive mom sometimes gets to go in.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And like I said, I’ve had all my case workers be in for deliveries and a C-section. It’s not for everybody to be in there. I have not had a C-section so I can’t speak from experience. But from speaking with people, you’re in a surgery. I mean, it’s a serious surgery.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And it’s one that … I think people, because they’re so common, people are like, “Yeah, it’s just a C-section.” I mean, it’s a serious surgery.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And I think that the babies, one of the other advantages of a C-section, is the babies don’t come coneheaded. They’re not stuck in the birth canal, they come out with the beautifully shaped heads. They haven’t had to go through the birth canal, so their faces aren’t all swollen and bruised and looking like they just fought a war, and then came out.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But it’s not something that you just automatically choose. I mean, obviously the best is to have a natural delivery and not have to go through surgery. With a C-section, some women are very afraid to have one because it is a surgery and it is a significant thing to happen. In the end the scars are very, very small. You can still wear a bikini afterwards. And then they used to gut you like a fish and there goes the bikini look.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But now they do it in such a way that you can’t see anything, when you’re wearing a bikini.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So that’s a plus. Ron, do you want to go over the 10 main reasons for having a cesarean section?

Ron Reigns:

According to americanpregnancy.org, 10 main reasons for having a cesarean section include placenta previa, breach position, cord prolapse, fetal distress, cephalopelvic disproportion, diabetes, preeclampsia, birth defects, multiple births, and active genital herpes.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. So when I was going through this, I was talking with Adam and he is like, “What is the really long one?”

Ron Reigns:

Okay. Cephalo … Oh, I’m sorry, cephalopelvic disproportion. Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It means that the baby’s head and shoulders are large, and they would worry that the baby would get stuck.

Ron Reigns:

Couldn’t they just say that, large head and shoulders?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yes.

Ron Reigns:

Sure it’d be a lot easier to pronounce. I’m just saying.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yes, no. Yeah, absolutely. And I think all of my children had this and they weren’t diagnosed with it.

Ron Reigns:

At least it felt that way.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

All my babies did have big heads. They all had really big heads, like really big.

Ron Reigns:

Oh, they still do. I’ve seen your kids. No, your children are beautiful, on both sides of that family.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Thank you, yes. No, but that’s funny. Anyway, so yes. And again, I have seen, with our birth mothers, a lot of them, these are all situations in pregnancy that you would deal with in an adoption situation. And nothing outside of this is really a surprise. Like I said, we’re doing this for 16 years and helping hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of women with an adoption plan.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

All of these, I have seen multiple times and our birth mothers have fared very well through their C-section. And after you’ve had a C-section one time, sometime the doctor will approve you to have what they call a VBAC. And that means that you can have a natural delivery after a caesarian section on the second one. Not everybody is a candidate for that-

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

… but right some people are. And some of the birth mothers I’ve worked with have said, “You know what? No, thank you. I don’t want to chance anything, and I want to just go straight to the C-section. I liked it, I’m familiar with it. I’m comfortable. I don’t want to try something new.”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And I don’t blame them. I mean, with my second child, I was very close to having a C-section because she was my almost 24-hour one. And I didn’t want it at that point, because she was my second child, I’d already been in labor and delivery for almost 24 hours. And at that point I felt it would be insulting to not finish.

Ron Reigns:

Right. In for a penny, in for a pound. “If I’m going to do this, I’m going to go all the way.” Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right, right. I’m getting credit for this. And luckily I didn’t have to have one, obviously I wouldn’t have said no. But it was one of those that you’re thinking, “I’ve worked this hard and now I could have just gone in and done this to begin with.”

Ron Reigns:

Right Now with the multiple births. Obviously that means twins, triplets, quadruplets.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

We’ve had twins delivered natural.

Ron Reigns:

I was going to ask that. Is that the standard though to have a cesarean if it’s a multiple birth? No. Okay, that’s just one of the reasons that somebody does.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Correct. As long that’s two. Obviously if it was three then, then yes. But with two, no. One of the birth mothers actually that I was case managing earlier this year had a set of twins, and she had them natural.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And she actually had them in such a way that I think if they had known the babies were positioned like this, they may have actually opted for a C-section for her, but she did great. But one of hers is what they call sunny side up. So it was turned where he was facing up, rather than down when the baby came out.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And so yeah, she delivered twins, no problem.

Ron Reigns:

Good for her and good for the twins.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. Yes. Having never had a set of twins, yeah, that sounds like you should get the T-shirt when you’re done.

Ron Reigns:

Well, I think by that point everybody sees that you have twins, so that’s your T-shirt. It’s like, “Okay, she did it.”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yes, yes. And she was just a champ, so it was … Yeah. Sometimes labor delivery can be super fast, and it was.

Ron Reigns:

Well, my grandparents used to say about my mother, that by the time she had me, she could have a baby in the morning and still make it to church. So I guess she was old hat at it, just a pro. She slide them out like a luge.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Wow. That’s crazy. I mean, yeah, I have to say that I … It is, in my mind, absolutely a miracle that women have a baby. And I know with my second child, and I had epidurals, obviously it wasn’t working because I felt everything. But I was able to, with some assistance, after I had the baby, after a little bit, I got up and I walked to the bathroom. I mean, it was like, “Okay, we’re good.”

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. And to me that’s incredible. You just had a baby and now I can walk.

Ron Reigns:

Yeah. The whole process is miraculous to me. And I commend anybody that has done it and will do it, it’s unbelievable. Whether it’s through cesarean or through natural childbirth, it’s awesome to me.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And I also think that one thing with cesarean is that you don’t feel anything. I mean, they use a nerve blocker in your spine and you don’t feel anything. And that go on the opposite with when you’re having a natural delivery, sometimes birth mothers will opt for an epidural and sometimes they won’t.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And I think it’s really neat how adoptive families support and empower birth mothers when they are making medical decisions regarding their pregnancy. And whether they choose an epidural or they don’t choose an epidural, just being there to support them with whatever choice they do choose. It’s just really, it’s one, again, of those bonding moments.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And those moments are what are going to carry on in your memory and that you’ll be sharing, if you’re the adoptive family, with your child for the rest of your life, their life. And it’s just, it’s one of those things that I think is just amazing and it’s beautiful. And it’s one of those situations that, in the adoption world, we get to smile over and celebrate. And yeah, I really enjoy that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So again, if you’re a birth mother and you’re going to be having ceasarean delivery, or if you’re an adoptive family and your birth mother’s going to be having a ceasarean delivery, know the positives are that you can plan around it and everything can be neat and tidy, and you’ve got everything ready to go.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Also, when you’re in the hospital, you normally stay for 72 hours, the birth mother does. And so it gives the birth mother and the adoptive family time to spend at the hospital together to continue bonding. And it gives the birth mother time to watch the adoptive family as they interact with the baby. And it gives her that peace of mind.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Because sometimes they’re really rushing moms out if they’re having a natural delivery. 24 to 48 hours and they’re out the door, and sometimes people need a little bit more time than that. I think it’s so funny to me when people try to make sure they can maximize their stay. Like the episode in The Office, when they didn’t want to go in too early because they wanted to make sure they got the full 48 hours. So that’s funny.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Another thing with a C-section is you don’t have to worry about going past your due date. I have never met a pregnant woman, ever, that has said, “I want to go past my due date. I want to deliver late.” They all think they’re going to deliver early, everyone.

Ron Reigns:

“Just two more extra weeks. I need that extra time.” So you’ve never seen that once? That surprises me, and you’ve met some pregnant women.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

No, I’ve never seen it. I’ve never seen a woman that would be happy to go past her due date. Everybody always thinks they’re going to deliver early. And when you go to the doctor with a birth mother and the doctor says, “Oh, you know what? I think we miscalculated your due date. I think you’re probably not as far along as we thought,” it feels like you just got grounded and put in time-out and that you have to do an extra few weeks.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I mean, it really does. There’s nothing to ruin someone’s mood if you tell them, “Oh, sorry, you’re only 22 weeks, not 24, so you’ve got an extra two weeks.” It does, it feels like shoots and ladders and you just got put back at the start.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I’ve never seen anybody happy about that. They’re happy in the reverse-

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

… if they find out they’re further along because that means they don’t have to go [crosstalk 00:15:50].

Ron Reigns:

That’s two less weeks that you have ahead of you. Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But one thing that is really funny to note is, I would say 75 to 80% of every pregnant woman I’ve talked to thinks that she’s going to go early. That she is so big, there is no possible way that she will make it this long.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it’s funny. And they say that doctors practice medicine, which I think is a really good term. Because with my second child they told me she was going to be so big, that’s why they induced me., Actually back then they induced me at 37 and a half weeks and they don’t do that anymore, but they did. And she was just going to be too large, just so, so big. And she was six pounds, nine ounces.

Ron Reigns:

Which is tiny, right. Well, maybe not tiny, but it’s small.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

A little peanut. You know what I mean? She was not a big baby.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And that was with ultrasounds and everything else. And it’s just one of those things that you think, “That was way off.”

Ron Reigns:

Yeah. “How long you been doing this? What are you, just practicing?”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

It was one of those, yeah, one of those moments that you just tilt your head. I know that when she came out I looked down at her, and the doctor looked down at her and we were both just staring at her. And because we were both expecting this ginormous baby. And her head was big, but so when her head was coming out, you’re thinking, okay, maybe you’re going to get a big baby. You don’t quite know yet.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And then she comes out and were looking at her and nurses are pounding, because she was my one that had the cord wrapped around her neck twice. But that was not what we expected. I mean, it was a shock. I was expecting a toddler to come out. I didn’t think she was going to be this itty-bitty little baby and yeah, she was little. So that was kind of funny.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But yeah, so that being said, there are advantages, don’t panic if your birth mother is going to have a C-section. I know some people get really nervous, don’t panic. You’re going to be in good hands. Even though they’re practicing medicine,

Ron Reigns:

They’ve got this part down.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

They’ve got this part down. These are really common, they’re scheduled. As an adoption agency, I would say our biggest hurdle with C-sections are reminding the birth mothers as we’re driving them to the hospital that, “No, we cannot stop at a fast food place on the way,” because you cannot eat prior.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And that has been a struggle sometimes because when you’re pregnant, speaking from experience, you want to eat. And if you know that you’re not going to be able to eat for an extended period of time, that doesn’t make a pregnant woman happy.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I had a situation once where a birth mother was driving … I’m sorry, a case manager was driving a birth mother. And she had called me and said, “I’m so sorry. I couldn’t not take her to Sonic.” And I said, “You cannot take her on the way to have her deliver by C-section. You can’t do that.” And she said, “She was going to get out of the car. I had no choice.” And I thought, “Okay.” And you know what I mean?

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So for a case worker, I mean, “Oh my gosh, I can’t have a pregnant woman jumping out of my car. I guess we’ll just sit at the hospital and we will have to wait longer for them to actually perform the surgery.” Anyway, that was one of-

Ron Reigns:

What are the effects of … Because I don’t know, I’ve never been through any of this, but what are the effects of say, going to Sonic right before? Do they have to-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

You can’t. Right. Because they don’t want you to aspirate or anything like that. They want your stomach to be empty in case they do have put you out.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

If something isn’t going well during your surgery and they actually put you to sleep, rather than you staying awake, they want to make sure that you are okay and-

Ron Reigns:

Can breathe the whole time.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right. So in any surgery, when you’re put out, they don’t want you to eat prior. And like I said, when you’re pregnant, food is a really big deal.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I knew another couple that the wife wanted a piece of chocolate cake from Cracker Barrel. And she sent out her significant other to go and get one, and they were out. And so he actually had the store manager write a note to his pregnant significant other saying that they were out of cake, because he was afraid to go back and not have the piece of cake. So he had a handwritten note from the manager to give to her, just to [inaudible 00:20:18] her.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So food is a really big deal, and it’s not something that should be taken lightly. Yeah, so that’s one thing. Anyway, that being said, yeah, the only issues we’ve ever had really are trying to convince a birth mother that you cannot eat prior to going to the hospital.

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So there’s lots of positives in having a C-section, if that is the way that the doctor feels is best and safest for both mom and baby. And know that you will be in good hands.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available twenty, four, seven by phone or text at six, two, three, six, nine, five, 41, 12. That’s six, two, three, six, nine, five, four, one, one, two. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.

Ron Reigns:

Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song, I Don’t Know, as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us, we’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid, and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:

And I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:

Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me Campaign. I have a Bachelor’s degree in Family Studies and Human Development and a Master’s degree in Education, with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Today we’re going to talk about gender reveal celebrations in adoption. This is becoming a huge trend on the outside of adoption, meaning that when women are pregnant and they are learning the gender of their baby, gender reveal celebrations are becoming a huge deal. Kind of like Sweet 16 parties or Quinceañeras or those kind of things. So what people are doing is when they’re pregnant, they are waiting to find out the gender of their child, or they’re waiting to surprise other people with a gender. So sometimes a woman who’s pregnant will have the gender sealed in an envelope by the ultrasound technician and somebody will look at that and then do the behind the scenes of the revelation of what it is. Or sometimes the pregnant woman and her significant other will know the gender and then have family and friends come over and then surprise them. And some of these are exceedingly elaborate. I mean we’re talking firecrackers and huge cakes that they’re cutting into and confetti and balloons out of boxes. I mean, you’ve seen these.

Ron Reigns:

Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right, Ron?

Ron Reigns:

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So this has now in infiltrated, this gender reveal celebration, into the adoption world, which is exciting. I mean, why shouldn’t it?

Ron Reigns:

Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

We’re still celebrating the gender of a baby and birth mothers want and have a right to have that celebration. So I’m seeing this more and more with some of our birth moms wanting to do a gender reveal for the adoptive family. So I thought that today we would talk about this and why this is an important milestone for birth mothers and for adoptive family.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So with baby showers, that’s not really customary for a birth mother in an adoption situation. I have seen it, in the 16 years that I’ve been in the field, where a birth mother has had a baby shower. That can be considered a red flag, because that means that not everybody knows or agrees with her adoption choice. However, if you have a birth mother that really just wants that milestone and really wants to celebrate that, I have seen a birth mother have a baby shower. Our case worker that was her actual case manager was so concerned she actually went to the baby shower and everybody knew who she was. They knew she was doing an adoption. And what they did is they bagged up all of the gifts and gave them to the adoptive family, which was beautiful.

Ron Reigns:

Oh, that’s sweet.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah. It was really sweet. So sometimes when you look at something at first glance, you’re like, “Ooh, that’s a red flag.” And then as you dig deeper and find out more, it’s just someone’s doing something a little bit different, but the gender reveal is not by any means, in my opinion, a red flag. I mean, anything can be turned into one, but just as a whole, it’s not a red flag. And we’re having more and more birth mothers want our assistance in having a gender reveal celebration for their adoptive family. What do you think about this

Ron Reigns:

To me, the gender, because I’m older, I mean this wasn’t a thing when we were kids or when we were growing up or when we had kids even. So it’s just strange to me, not in a bad way, just it’s a different world now. But I think it’s awesome actually. I mean, I haven’t been to one. Just like anything, like you say, it can get out of hand and you can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on anything, I guess, but as a concept, I think it’s great. I think it’s fun. And I think, like you said, instead of being a red flag in adoption, it’s just a nice, sweet, family oriented event. So there’s nothing wrong with it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And it can be toned way down in terms of expense. What we’ve had, and I’ll go over some ideas for families out there and for birth moms that are thinking about having a gender reveal, you can tone this down to even a text message, where you surprise them or a quick video. And so we’ve done that, especially if it’s an out of state adoptive family. Some of our birth mothers have done like the balloons, like they’ll fill a box with the balloons in the color, pink obviously for a girl or blue for a boy. And they have helium in them so then when they’re FaceTiming the adoptive family, they open up the box and out go the balloons. And that’s really fun. I’s cute. It’s a memory that they’re making and it’s something that they’ll always have to think back on.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And it’s fun for the adoptive family because otherwise they wouldn’t get to participate, if this is their only child or their first child, in a gender reveal. And so this is a way that they too can join or have this new celebration that they may not have been able to have. So I think it’s kind of a win-win. Again, it can be done very inexpensively. I’ve seen where you take those little blocks and you can put boy or girl and you can hold something in front of it and then slowly lift it up. It doesn’t have to be $500 gowns and fireworks and so forth. But I can definitely see how an adoptive family can really have fun with that and then in turn, if they want to, they can have a gender reveal party for their family and friends once they know the gender.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So they can then carry that on and show even the birth mother what they did at their gender reveal. So that would be really fun. It’s something that they can talk about and work through together. And it can help create a bond between the adoptive family and the birth mother.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So some ideas, if you are pregnant and considering adoption, or have an adoption plan, if you choose an adoptive family that is local and you could meet with them in person, we’ve done these at our office. And what we do is, is either just pick up some cupcakes and then when you bite into the cupcake, the color of the cake is blue or pink. I’ve seen cake pops. Those are really cute. Also confetti.

Ron Reigns:

Real quick. What are cake pops?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Are you being serious, Ron?

Ron Reigns:

I’m being completely serious. I’ve never heard of cake pops.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Have you ever been to Starbucks?

Ron Reigns:

Well, I’ve been there, but I don’t buy their food.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Okay. Well, a cake pop is a round donut, basically, with frosting over it on a stick.

Ron Reigns:

Okay. Okay. Well, just like I guess it would sound. Interesting. Okay. Just carry on. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt the whole proceedings here.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Well, welcome back to 2020.

Ron Reigns:

I told you I’m old.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

All right. So moving on, a gender reveal confetti. Maybe you have confetti in a balloon and the balloon’s not see-through and you pop it, and again, it can have the colors. Create a box. Sometimes I’ve seen baby girl clothes in pink or pink pacifiers or pink baby bottles and they open up the box and, voila, there’s pink stuff which means a girl or blue if you’re having a boy. Or I’ve seen also to play a game of trivia. So they have to ask questions and try to determine if it’s a boy or a girl, kind of pictionary-esque.

Ron Reigns:

See, I love those kind of games too, with family and sitting around and doing.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Right.

Ron Reigns:

We did one for Adam for his birthday. And it was a bunch of questions about Adam’s, your husband’s, life, and I thought that was so much fun and so clever. And you came up with that, didn’t you?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah, yeah.

Ron Reigns:

That was fun. So yeah, I like that idea. To kind of make it a trivia game.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Yeah, just for fun. Again, like I said, baby clothes, maybe give a gift to the adoptive family and when they unwrap it, there’s the clothing for the baby, which is fun. I’ve also seen just very, I guess, calm, nothing elaborate, framing the ultrasound with color around the picture. So that’s fun.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

If you have an adoptive family out of state, a lot of those ideas you can also video and send them a short clip, or a picture, or you can make a gender reveal card and send them. You can pose with like a blue or a pink onesie, just like put it on your belly and send a picture of that. You can, again, use the blocks and do a really cute picture with that. Or hold up little pink or blue baby shoes. That’s cute. You can paint your baby bump blue or pink if you want to, if you’re not shy to show your tummy.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

The gum, I think is adorable, blowing a pink or a blue bubble gum and when it comes out then you can see what the baby’s going to be. Or just doing a box. Taking everything pink or blue that has to do with the baby and putting it in a box and you can either make it into a game, so each of the adoptive parents would pull out an item, you’d have to mail this to them, but they pull out an item, and then the one that’s left, like you pull out all the pink, I’ll pull out all the blue, alternating, and then the one that’s left is what they’re having. So I mean, you can do a lot of really fun things to make it really fun and in good spirits.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And again, you can be FaceTiming the opposite, whether it’s the birth mother or the adoptive family, just so that you can be a part of that.

Ron Reigns:

Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And it should be fun. So we help our birth mothers do this. I think that it is important to celebrate the good things in life and this is such a small thing that we can do to help show them how much we support them, that if they want to have a gender reveal, we do accommodate that. So it’s just something really fun.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So, and again, unfortunately we can’t always do the gender reveal because they know the gender sometimes when they’re matched. So it really just depends on the timing, but for those who do it, I’ve had nothing but positive experiences. So something to think about, if you are in a position to be able to do a gender reveal and you want a really fun bonding moment between you and your adoptive family, or you, the adoptive family, and your birth mother, consider doing a gender reveal and talk to your agency about it.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112. That’s (623) 695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song I Don’t Know our theme song. Birth Mother Matters In Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.

Ron Reigns:

Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:

Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 6:

And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 3:

Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 4:

All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President, and Co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a Bachelor’s degree in family studies in human development and a Master’s degree in education, with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother. Raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:

And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the Co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife, who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Doing part two today regarding adoption and siblings. And today we’re going to talk about siblings with different adoption stories. And again, I want to start off with a quote, “The greatest gift our parents ever gave us was each other.” And that again is by somebody called, unknown. This Mr., Mrs. Unknown has some great quotes-

Ron Reigns:

Amazing library of quotes from Unknown. In the handbook of socialization. When talking about sibling relationships, it says, “usually formed in childhood, they tend to last longer than other key relationships such as those with parents and partners and ordinarily children will spend more time in interactions with siblings than with close others.” And Wendi Sturgis, Judy Dunn, and Lisa Davies, when talking about young children’s perceptions of their relationships with family members said, “Research indicates that biological relatedness was not associated with young children’s perception of closeness to siblings. Being a full half or step sibling did not influence their perception of closeness.”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So the second quote that you gave is really interesting to me because the fact that the research indicates that biological relatedness was not associated with young children’s perception of closeness to siblings, being half, full, step, did not influence their perception of closeness, just like adoption would be in that category as well. It’s not listed, but in my opinion, it would be listed as well.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And so I think that that’s very interesting. I think that we, as a society, put up barriers with words and categories. And if you remove the categories and you remove some of the words as we’re going to talk about, you will see a lot more cohesiveness. We very much like to compartmentalize as a society. And if we stop doing that, I think we’re going to see a different community. So, that being said, it is very common for adopted siblings to have different adoption stories.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

My brother and I were both adopted. Our birth mothers both placed us for adoption at the time that we were born. And we have very different adoption stories. And yet, it didn’t change our relationship because there was no alternative. There was no sense of, oh, well we should have the same or it should be different. We both grew up knowing our adoption story. And it wasn’t ever a competition or something that was really discussed between us. It was just probably the same as, I have this color eyes and you have this color eyes, you know what I mean? It wasn’t any better or worse, just different.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Adoptive parents can use the opportunity of, with their children, having different adoption stories to impress upon your children, how individual and special they are, but in not to an extreme that they’re going to feel different or outcast or like an outsider. You can focus on it and talk about it. But again, don’t make it isolate. Don’t make them feel like they’re so different, even though you keep saying how special they are and how lucky they are. That’s really not how a lot of children would perceive it. So really focus on how, in every situation, when you are comparing and contrasting. In most cases, you can find some commonalities, some similarities. I would start there. And then I would focus if they ask questions on the differences.

Ron Reigns:

And that makes a lot of sense. And I think that’s a way we can approach life in general. Like I think of discussing politics for instance. And there’s so much of a division, especially right now in politics, and I’m not going to get into that in particular, but I think one way to approach somebody whose opinion or life is different than yours, is like you say, to point out the things that we have in common about our beliefs. I mean, there’s so many of them. Granted, there’s some drastic differences in our beliefs or our lives or whatever it is, but there’s also so many similarities that we have in common and we should focus on that when we approach somebody else’s life or their opinions or whatever it is. So I think that’s vastly important, not just in adoption, but just in life. Look at the things we have in common.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Our world will be a lot different. The only real way two adopted children can have the same adoption story is if the same biological parents place a second baby for adoption, with the same adoptive family, with the same post placement communication agreement. And even then you could still have a different set of circumstances. So although there may be lots and lots and lots of similarities, there still may be some differences. And again, start with focusing on the commonalities and then go from there.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Children really, and I can’t enforce this enough, don’t like to be singled out. They don’t want to be different. They want to blend in. Children generally don’t like to be, as we’ve been stating, to be different. So the traditional family, the ones that, thank goodness, we can see different ones now on TV. But back when we were growing up, other than the Gary Coleman Show-

Ron Reigns:

Different Strokes.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And The Facts of Life. There were very few shows that deviated from the traditional biological nuclear family. There just weren’t very many.

Ron Reigns:

I think it’s interesting that you bring that up though, because at least when I was growing up, it seemed like the ones that did deviate. I mean, of course there was the happy days and stuff, which was your traditional nuclear family, but when they did deviate, some of those shows were really popular and interesting. Eight is Enough, like you said, Different Strokes, with Gary Coleman, Facts of Life was obviously at a girl school. So it was a different dynamic too than your traditional. So some of those shows really did stand out even at that time, and I think I learned a lot about the different, even the Brady Bunch was a mixed family. So there was-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

Sure, when I think back, I mean, you look at Little House on the Prairie, the Waltons, those families that were nuclear. Now again, you’re right. There were ones that weren’t. And maybe it was my perception as an adopted child, is the ones that were different were kind of my norm. I mean, I didn’t know any better, but yet I knew that I wasn’t in a biological nuclear family.

Ron Reigns:

Right. Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

But I loved Different Strokes and I loved all of the shows. My favorite was Little House in the Prairie.

Ron Reigns:

Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So when you have the nontraditional nuclear family, you look at, well what’s opposite of that. Well, not really opposite, but what’s outside of the nontraditional nuclear family. There are adopted siblings, foster siblings, step siblings, half siblings. Again, we’ve created so many categories and some people would say, “well, it’s organization and it’s definitive, and we can look at the, the picture like this.” But again, I think it just puts up walls and barriers. And I actually don’t like titles before names. I like sisters and brothers and siblings.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

We have a blended family and I don’t like the term step. I don’t like the term stepmom, stepdad, stepsister, stepbrother. And in our household, it is guided to not use those terms. Obviously, when they’re outside our home or at school or whatever, they can choose to refer to whatever they would like to, but in our home, it’s something that we discourage. Because again, I think it just puts up barriers. And it lets people know that you’re my sister, but not really. Because I’m going to put this, this word in front of sister to put my hand out and keep you at bay. And I don’t want that. I want our children to look at each other as siblings. So I think that when we add words in front of sibling, sister, brother, it gives a shout out that it’s not a traditional relationship. And even though it’s just a word or a precursor, it doesn’t give the same vibe. It let’s somebody know, “Hey, this isn’t, not really.” And who’s to say, it’s not really?

Ron Reigns:

Right, and it really does put somebody, or maybe both of them in that outsider box. My stepsister or my stepbrother. And I agree with you a hundred percent. They should be my, “oh, this is sister and this is my brother.” Whether they’re step or adopted or whatever, like you say, the precursor is, they should just be your sister or brother or mom, dad, son, daughter.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

In developing a close family bond, it means shedding those barriers and stop feeling the need to explain the origination of your family and how you came together. When you walk up to somebody and you talk about your family, you don’t grab your spouse by the hand and feel like you need to explain how you two got together and when you first met each other, every single time you introduced them to somebody. And so why do that when you’re talking about your children or they’re talking about each other?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

What’s really important is, the stability and permanence children experience and parenting them to the best of your ability. Not categorizing them and defining by how they came into the family, whether, again, they were adopted or whether they’re foster, everybody wants to belong. And putting a precursor in front of their title in a relationship is just causing division. Even if it’s just in their head.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

A difference that’s important is, adoption stories can be handled with care to not to overinflate or segregate a child’s personal history. So what I mean by this is, the focus can be how much the child means to the family and how their life journey will be very similar to his or her siblings because they’re being raised together.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So changing the focus on how they came into the family, to who they are in the family, and who they’re going to become, I think gives the child a sense of empowerment and control. Which when you are adopted or you have a disability, there is a feeling of a loss of control and power over certain things. And when somebody experiences a lack of control or power, they don’t feel safe. And in order for someone to feel safe, they have to be able to feel in control. That’s why some people don’t like to drink alcohols. Because they don’t want that sense of feeling out of control. They want to be able to stay in control of themselves and their thoughts and their feelings.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And if you are comparing birth stories from one child to another, within earshot, or even with the children, they may feel like, well, I had no control over that. My mom chose what she chose and it it’s not my fault. And so that being said, it’s a lack of control. And children very much want to be in control. And that gives them a little bit, to talk about who they are now, and what amazing things they can accomplish.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

You focus on what a family is and what makes a family. Relating the creation of a family to the creation of our country is another way to explain the positives and beauty of creating a nation, but doing it in such a way that you’re not separating or making the child feel like they’re the outsider coming in.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

So in other words, if your child wants to discuss their adoption story and they have a different adoption story than their sibling, then focus on, “yes, this is your story, but that doesn’t mean that you’re better or worse or even really different than your sister. Your story just changes a little bit.” Maybe in her adoption story, this is how her birth mother decided on adoption. And this is the way that your birth mother decided on adoption. And they’re both beautiful stories. They just have a lot of similarities, and a lot of commonalities, but there are a few differences. But really, let’s focus on how similar the two of you are. And that’s going to create a higher source and sense of self-esteem. And that’s really important, especially with children, if they’re having adoption related issues and they’re feeling insecure. This last quote that, Ron, I’d love for you to read, is something that I actually don’t want to end with. I’d like to just discuss it before we close out the podcast today.

Ron Reigns:

“Sibling relationships, outlast marriages, survive the death of parents, resurface after corals, that would sink any friendship. They flourish in a thousand incarnations of closeness and distance, warmth, loyalty, and distrust.” And that’s by Erica E Goode.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

I found this quote so amazing because it really does talk about the ups and downs of sibling relationships. And like you, my relationship with my adopted brother growing up, it went from us not getting along to us very much getting along, but it wasn’t an up and down thing. It was pretty consistent in both areas.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:

And I would say that as an adult, my relationship with all my siblings is very positive. But that’s not always the case. And it’s so interesting to me, how, regardless, if we’re talking about adopted siblings, foster siblings, step siblings, half siblings, it really doesn’t matter. It really just depends on those people. At that point, forget all of the precursors and acronyms and anything else you want to put in there, it’s just the relationships. But they do outlast some marriages and survive the death of some parents. And resurface after corals, that would sink any friendship. You always hear people say, “yeah, I had this knockdown drag out with my sibling and if it was anybody else, I’d never speak to them again.” And it’s so interesting that that is truly your lifelong relationship. Good or bad. For better or for worse. And I mean, to this day, do you have a close relationship with your siblings?

Ron Reigns:

It’s odd. We have a very close bond with each other, like on an emotional level. But we rarely talk. I mean, I’ll talk to my brother, maybe a couple times a month, maybe. My sisters about the same. But there is a bond and a love that distance and time don’t matter. I mean, once we start talking again or hanging out or whatever it is, whether I go out to see my brother in South Carolina, it’s like no time has passed. It’s amazing, and I am very blessed for my siblings and these last two podcasts, if they do nothing else, maybe it’ll remind somebody to call their brother or their sister or their mom or their dad. Somebody that they haven’t told how much they love him in a long time and get that done.

Ron Reigns:

Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families as a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623)-695-4112 that’s (623)-695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at AZpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song, “I Don’t Know,” as our theme song.

Ron Reigns:

Birth Mother Matters and Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.