Ron Reigns:
Welcome. And thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.
Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.
Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.
Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
Ron Reigns:
According to the CDC, nearly one in five births to teen mothers, ages 15 to 19, is a repeat birth. About 183 repeat teen births occur each day in the United States. And only about one in five sexually active teen mothers use the most effective type of birth control even after they have given birth. And according to the 2006 Guttmacher Institute report, Repeat Abortion in the United States, women having a second or higher order abortion are substantially different from women having a first abortion in only two important ways. They are more than twice as likely to be age 30 or older. And even after controlling for age, almost twice as likely to have already had a child. Among all women having an abortion, six in 10 are mothers.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And speaking solely for our agency, Building Arizona Families, I get asked this question often from adoptive families, “What are the chances that our child’s birth mother may get pregnant and choose adoption again?” I think the answer may surprise our listeners, very possible. We do everything we can as an adoption agency to assist our birth mothers in leaving the adoption program in a better state than how they arrived. We help birth mothers obtain birth control, and we can assist them long-term through the Donna K. Evans program. Now, before we go into the Donna K. Evans program, I think it’s important to understand why women do wind up experiencing an unplanned crisis pregnancy again, and why they would choose adoption again. So again, we’re speaking solely from our experience, what we see in Arizona, especially and solely what we see at Building Arizona Families.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Sometimes women go through the program, exit the program, and then they come back and they’re pregnant again, and they really want the same family. They would want to keep the two biological children together, sometimes they want a new family. But the reasons that they come in are what and why we created the Aftercare Program was because we didn’t want them to have to go through the emotional, physical process of a pregnancy and placing a child for adoption. That’s not an easy thing to go through. I would say we see as high as a 35% birth mother return rate. That being said, the reasons that I believe that we are seeing such a high rate is because we become their sense of community. We become their refuge. We become their haven. A lot of these women are out in a community and they have nobody. They are homeless and on the street, and people are mistreating them, and they’re hungry, and they’re scared, and they’re alone.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And when they’re in an adoption program, they’re cared for and they’re provided for, and they have that connection with not only the adoptive family, but with their adoption case worker. So that sense of community and family to them is something that everybody longs for, especially when you’re so deprived of it. When women come back in to the program, they’re looking for that connection a lot of the time. Some of them don’t want birth control, some of them really had a good experience and they want to experience that again. But we have found that the success of a second positive placement, meaning that a placement actually went through, is 65%, maybe 70%. It’s not a hundred percent. So just because a mom places the first time does not guarantee an adoptive family that she’s going to place again. And that is something that a lot of adoptive families don’t realize.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I would say that factors that we ended at are whether she’s placing with the same adoptive family. I have seen that if it’s the same family, the rates are higher, that she’s more likely to place again. Her current circumstances, her participation and compliance with the adoptive program, so if she’s going to the appointments and following through, and meeting her case worker, and doing what is her role and responsibility, that is positive, if she develops a good relationship with the adoptive family and the adoption case manager. And really, how she felt the outcome of the previous placement, really what? If it was really positive, then chances are that she’s going to feel positive about this choice and follow through. If she has a family that committed to send pictures and letters, and let’s say they didn’t follow through, and it became kind of a battle to get the pictures and letters and she chooses that same family again, I would be concerned how committed she is because she hadn’t been happy with the outcome.
Ron Reigns:
Right. And because she hadn’t seen that commitment from the family on her end, so why should she feel committed to this adoption?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Absolutely. I totally agree with that. And I will say that for families that don’t follow through a hundred percent on their communication agreement, I see some moms come back a second time and choose a different family and say, “You know what? I don’t want that family again.”
Ron Reigns:
Right, “I still want to choose adoption.”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah, “Because I would love to keep the siblings together.”
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yet it’s not our choice, it’s the birth mother’s choice. And I understand her reasoning and rationale, and it’s not even something that we even debate with her. It’s solely her choice. She has the option to choose what she wants to choose. But for families that go above and beyond, I have found that when… Or if a birth mother comes back, they automatically want that family. Women don’t always go the second time around to the same agency. She may not have liked her experience with that previous agency.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I had one girl that came to us a second time, but said she had called another agency because she was so embarrassed that she was pregnant and in the same predicament. And I reassured her that, “There’s nothing to be embarrassed about. We’re all human, we’re here. We’re here to help you. We want you to come to us. If you are pregnant again, we want to be here for you and we’re not judgmental. We’re not going to judge you or your reason for coming in.”
Ron Reigns:
And we’re actually proud of you for making this choice and being this strong once again. I understand the embarrassment because there’s things that we get embarrassed about through our lives that aren’t even logical in a lot of ways. It’s like why would you be embarrassed about that? But when you’re the person that’s embarrassed, logic doesn’t come into play all the time.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I couldn’t concur more. That was a really good point. And the particular woman that I’m talking about actually chose the same family, which I was thrilled.
Ron Reigns:
Yeah.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But the other reason that a woman may not choose the same agency is she may want just a total clean start. Maybe she felt like she did her time with that agency and she has that experience, and now she wants to try this, but I don’t see that as often. Like I said, we have a pretty high return rate for moms that come back. I think that is a testament to what we’re doing because it is important to us to really try to work with these moms and really try to help them, and give them some sense of pride and boost their self-esteem. Because again, that’s the main thing that I have drilled into our case workers is self-esteem is the key to getting out of the basement, like we talked about before.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When you are working with somebody that has very, very low self-esteem, that is the foundation of everything. Trust issues, their perception of how they internalize things, what their self worth is, what they think that their potential is, what they will allow themselves to be treated as or in a manner that somebody with a higher self-esteem wouldn’t allow that same treatment. And so it’s important to help them break some of these negative life cycles that they have gotten themselves into. The goal is, is by doing that, that they won’t wind up back on the street, wind up back on drugs, and making choices that lead them down this path to where they’re not able to parent, and they’re not able to bring in an income, all these negatives.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So that’s why the Donna K. Evans Foundation is so important because it gives these women a platform, a location, an opportunity to have a mailing address so they can get a job. It gives them classes, group counseling. It helps them locate and obtain long-term housing if they can. It helps them with emergency housing. There’s so many avenues that we can take this to really lift women up because if we don’t, the society that they are in will just keep pushing them down.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
If we go back into early days, pioneer times I guess, even before then, women were… I don’t want to say the rock of the home. But the men were the hunters and the gatherers, and the women were the nurturers and the ones to take care of the children and the ones to… Equal partners in the sense of, “I need me as much as I need you.” And when a woman is living on the streets and she’s in that survival, “I’m alone mode,” she’s having to take on so much and can’t parent, and can’t do what she wants in her heart to do and is genetically mindseted to do. I don’t even know if that’s a word, but do you understand what I’m saying?
Ron Reigns:
I absolutely do. I really do. And I think it’s a beautiful thing you do because like you say, they do get support while they’re in the adoption phase of it. But in a way, that’s a boost. But then to be able to utilize the Donna K. Evans Foundation and the services you offer afterwards, that’s almost like saying, “Okay, you’ve taken that first step. Let’s keep going in that direction.”
Ron Reigns:
I know it’s kind of cliche, the whole adage of, “Give a man a fish, he’ll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for the rest of his life.” It’s kind of like that. You’re trying to set them up for success by giving them the means to… Not just giving them the money for instance, but saying, “Okay, this is a direction and we’re going to help you go that way. There’s a target out there.” And the rewarding part of it isn’t hitting the target. The rewarding part is going toward the target and they’ll continue to learn and get better. And once you hit the target, then maybe you look at another target and you go, “I want to achieve that now,” and you keep proceeding along those lines. I don’t know. What are you saying?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You’re a hundred percent right, it’s walking up the stairs.
Ron Reigns:
Right. I don’t know, I just think Donna K. Evans Foundation is a beautiful thing and what you guys are doing to help these women head in the right direction and get the skills they need to proceed in life-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah….
Ron Reigns:
… and get better.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. No, I think that is an accurate word. And one thing that I think as an adoption community, before we started championing the post-placement aftercare services, these women are taken care of financially throughout their pregnancy. And I think in some aspects, it’s a false sense of security because if they come in early enough in the program… I mean, we’re talking months that their housing is paid for, and they’re given a food allowance and clothing, and all the necessities are taken care of.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I’ve seen women think, “Oh, I can do this.” And some of those women will even go on to be thinking, “Okay, well, maybe I can parent. I’m able to do this. I have a roof over my head and food.” And they’re not connecting the fact that this isn’t self-sustain. They are being completely funded and provided for because of the adoption plan. That is why by implementing an Aftercare Program, we are able to take more of a hands-off approach because the funding is only there for the six to eight weeks after they deliver, but we can still guide them and help them become self-sufficient.
Ron Reigns:
It kind of helps them with that transition, from being supported to supporting themselves.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. And we’ve actually started a new protocol with our agency, and this is a brand new, I want to say layer, that we’re adding on, where I have developed a binder system. And so what is happening is our aftercare worker Donna K. Evans case manager is meeting with the birth moms prior to delivery. And together, they are developing a resource binder. And in that resource binder are the apartments that she’s interested in looking at, like brochures, housing resources, food banks. And so we’re developing this, this binder, that we will give her when it’s complete, after she places for adoption, so that she has almost a resource Bible if you will. She will be armed with everything that she needs in that moment because we’re trying, again, to give her…
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Like you said, we’re teaching her how to fish with a fishing pole. We don’t just want to give her the fish. And so that binder is representative of a fishing pole. That is our newest, I would say layer. We’ve just started doing that. I think we’ve had a couple girls begin their binder and we’re moving through. Like I said, it’s going to be for all of the women in the program, but this connection is really neat. And one aspect that I added in at the very end was… Do you remember those plastic sheets with the baseball cards that you would put baseball cards in?
Ron Reigns:
Yeah.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. Well, you know how they fit business cards? You can fit business cards in them?
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We made sure that we put one at the end, the last page of each binder, because that way, as they’re meeting with people in apartments and they’re going on interviews, they can start putting the cards in their binder. Because again, some of these women have no concept on how to become organized and keep a copy of their resume in their binder. You know what I mean? It’s just one of those layers to kind of take everything that you need, all of your tools, and put them in a toolbox. That’s what the binder is, so that’s kind of a neat thing. I’ll keep you posted as to how it’s going, and the reception of the birth mothers and how they’re liking it. But so far, it’s going over really well.
Ron Reigns:
I would love for you to keep us posted on any new ideas like that the Donna K. Evans Foundation or Building Arizona Families is implementing to help out these birth mothers. I think that’s amazing.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Definitely. For all of you listeners out there, know that we are continuing to support women, and empower them, and help them achieve their goals because they are choosing this selfless choice of adoption.
Ron Reigns:
I want to mention one more thing about the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and we had mentioned it in a previous podcast because I was curious and I had asked you, you don’t only help birth mothers who have come to Building Arizona Families. It is birth mothers who have adopted or placed their child for adoption with any agency or any attorney or whatever.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… Whether it’s with an attorney or an adoption agency. In other words, it’s not for a DCS removal situation. But any mother that has chosen adoption and placed privately, like I said through any agency or any attorney, we will help them. There are no restrictions. You do not have to work solely through Building Arizona. And we did that because we didn’t want to make any woman feel like our agency had to be the right fit for her to get back on her feet after. We just want to congratulate her and encourage her for choosing adoption.
Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24-7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112. That’s (623) 695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.
Ron Reigns:
Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song, I Don’t Know, as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.