Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself. Because, if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.
Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.
Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.
Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Family’s adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies in human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
Ron Reigns:
On this episode of birth mother matters and adoption part two of our three part series, Two lives, One choice.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Abortion represents death, finality and loss. How can the ends ever justify the means, when we’re talking about a baby? How often have you heard people taking a stand for or against abortion? Both sides of the abortion coin are fiercely defensive of their opinion, justifying their position in rationale. But if we take a step back to look at both sides, positions and rationales, that will help us clarify and educate ourselves on the opposing side. It is my belief and I believe yours too, that the more abortion is understood, the more one understands the accepts that abortion is anti-human, anti-life and anti-woman the more people will gravitate away from believing that it should be legalized and more towards understanding that life needs preservation.
Ron Reigns:
I agree a hundred percent obviously. Yeah.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In preparing for this podcast, I actually spent a lot of time going through article after article after article, because I really wanted to dig deeper into the pro-choice side. Because, I believe that by doing that, I could understand where they’re coming from. If you don’t understand where somebody is on the opposing side, it’s really hard to reach that. In other words, if you are on one side of a border and somebody’s on the other side and you don’t speak the same language, how are you going to communicate? So, this will help the communication to flow and, and develop an understanding. In the last 25 years, the Guttmacher Institute has conducted two major studies asking women why they chose abortion. 7% of women stated they chose abortion because of a health reason or possible health problem with the baby and less than a half percent stated that they chose to abort because they became pregnant as a result of rape.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
92% of abortions in America are chosen by healthy women to terminate the lives of healthy babies. Again, just to clarify, this is just this Institute’s findings. You will find numbers depending on the study that you’re looking at that will be a little bit different. They’re all in the same ballpark, but they may be a little bit different. This to me is astounding, absolutely astounding that we have based a law on a very low percentage of what initially people who are pro-choice will say, “I’m not pro abortion, I’m pro a woman’s right to choose. I’m pro the government not being able to place restrictions or laws on what we’re able to do with our bodies.” In giving that leeway, 92% of abortions are done on health women and healthy babies.
Ron Reigns:
Right. And it is literally only a matter of choice. It’s not because of somebody’s health. And I also want to go back to the rape argument that you brought up. So, we’re talking one half of 1% and invariably, anytime you get into a discussion about abortion with somebody, they say, “Well, what if a moment was raped?” And even if you concede that and you say, “Okay, in cases of rape, there should be legalized abortion.” Even if you concede that, which personally I’m really on the fence with that one. But, you’re still talking about a half of a percent of actual abortions. Can we please just take that off the table, stop making that your big argument. Because if you say, “Okay, if a woman is raped, she can have an abortion. Nobody else can.” Then, does their argument fall apart? No, it doesn’t. They still have their argument. But, they’re just trying to use that some sort of a strongman argument that isn’t really the real issue. I don’t even know if that makes sense.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That makes perfect sense and I totally agree. I think that I personally, still, even when it is a situation of rape, I still believe that positive can come from negative and it’s not the child’s fault. But, we’ll talk a little bit about that as we get further into the podcast. But, I do understand and respect a differing of opinion, regarding a rape situation that is obviously very traumatizing for parties involved. And again, no judgment. But, the fact that we’re talking, like you said, less than a half a percent, if the storm team in Arizona got on the news today and said, there is a half a percent, it is going to rain tomorrow, we would not carry an umbrella.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
As we examine the philosophies and arguments supported by believers in the right to have abortion legalized, can further educate society as a whole.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
What they’re doing is, on both sides, pro-life and pro-choice, are using catchy slogans as a marketing tool, like a trigger. So that you can remember what you’re trying to promote. The pro-life side uses, it’s a child, not a choice. Some babies die by chance. No babies should die by choice. And then, choice is just another pretty word for murder. On the pro-choice side, the most common ones are, it’s a woman’s right to choose. It’s her body. It’s her choice. I am a woman, not a womb. And what I found interesting in the pro-choice versus the pro-life is that the focus on the pro-life side is all about the child being murdered. Like, we don’t want that child to die. We don’t want the child to die. And the pro-choice side is all about women and their right to make a decision. So somebody’s decision, somebody’s life.
Ron Reigns:
I think one far outweighs the other. But again, that’s just my opinion.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. There’s a belief that women should have a right to choose what happens to their bodies rather than having the government, making laws, prohibiting them from doing stuff. This dance falls underneath the feminist viewpoint or belief system that men should not have the right to tell them what to do. I do not think that in hindsight, having the Supreme Court be comprised of nine men that ruled on Roe V. Wade, did this argument any favors. The other counter argument is that, 50% of unborn babies are little girls. The unborn baby girl has her own body separate from that of her mother. So, by being pro-choice, you’re negating 50% of your own argument because 50% of abortions take away the rights of 50% of the female population. Another argument that is often made by the pro-choice campus, women will resort to back alley abortions, if abortion is no longer legal and they will die at the hands of butchers. We’ve heard this for years and years.
Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I would say, this is a very good example of where the ends don’t justify the means.
Ron Reigns:
Well, as an example, for instance, murder is illegal. It still happens. People are still doing it. Does that mean we should make murder legal tomorrow so that there won’t be illegal murders happening? I don’t think it justifies the means. I think you’re absolutely right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. And Dr. Bernard Nathanson, the co-founder of the National Abortion Rights Action League admits that he and other abortion industry leaders invented figures to make the claim that thousands of women are dying annually from unsafe abortions. In 1960, Dr. Mary Calderone, a former medical director for Planned Parenthood, estimated that 9 out of 10 illegal abortions were actually done by licensed doctors. There are physicians trained as such. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal is in the may-no-longer-dangerous because it is being done well by physicians. So basically, the back alley hyped… Were there back alley abortions? I’m sure there were. Were there ones that were awful and horrendous? Absolutely. But was that the majority? According to the research, it wasn’t.
Ron Reigns:
Right. You know, research has suggested that other countries demonstrate that restricting abortion does not cause a rise in maternal deaths.
Ron Reigns:
Ireland has the lowest maternal mortality rate in the world. According a study by several agencies at the United Nations, despite its tight abortion restrictions. In Ireland, it is very, very difficult to get an abortion and they actually have the lowest maternal mortality rate. So that argument is not supported either, factually. Another argument, the pro-choice side uses is about the young women whose lives will be ruined by an unwanted pregnancy. In the olden days, they used to send women off to maternity homes to have the babies and then place them for adoption. Then they would come home and nobody would know that they’d had a child. When you look at it well, when does murder of convenience become acceptable? If you have too many children at home, you don’t murder them, when they’re not convenient. The right to life, shouldn’t be trumped by the right to be unencumbered.
Ron Reigns:
I think additionally, it’s incorrect to assume that future and educational career goals must end due to a pregnancy. We have an aftercare program that specifically helps women after they have a baby and that child for adoption to get back on their feet and get the education they need and help them in their career field. So that’s something to look at as well. And like you had said earlier, what about rape? Because, that’s a central argument that is used by the pro-choice side. And the Supreme Court stated the death penalty is considered cruel and unusual punishment for the perpetrator, for a rapist and they do not deserve the death penalty. But then, why does the child? So, that’s something to think about. And then, some research shows that 15% to 25% of rape victims elect to abort their baby, the remainder 75% to 80, 85% do not.
Ron Reigns:
And carry it to term.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They carry a term and either choose to place for adoption or choose to focus on remembering that, that child is still 50% part of them. And just because they were raped by an unfortunate individual does not mean that they have to co-parent with that person. And again, I am not downplaying rape any stretch of the imagination. I think it’s horrific. I absolutely think that it is one of the worst things that can happen. That being said, I don’t think adding murder on top of a crime against a woman is going to improve the situation. I think that as the pro-choice dance really wants to focus on rape. Again, we’re talking about a very few amount of cases that actually result from rape in abortion. And when we’re looking at the life of a child, there was actually some discussion about whether or not, I am the result of a rape.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My mom had told me at one point, that she had been raped and she didn’t know if that was the result of my conception or not. And she kind of went back and forth. She didn’t really want to talk about it and then she’d bring it up. And then she would say, “No, that wasn’t it.” And then, she would bring it back up and kind of indicate that it was. But then, she would say, “No.” I don’t know that it was or not. I don’t. But, I know that as a person, if for some reason it was, it doesn’t change who I am.
Ron Reigns:
And I think that’s very important and very powerful what you’re saying. Because, just assuming that you were a product of rape, then think of the blessing that you’ve become to your family, to all the people around you and your circle, to these birth mothers who needed somebody to help them through a difficult situation. And it may even include a rape situation. All these people that you’ve affected in your life, I think are blessed by you. And if you were the product of a rape, I don’t think that discounts you in any way. As a matter of fact, it makes it almost more of a blessing.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Thank you. That I don’t know and unfortunately with her gone, I don’t know that I’ll ever know.
Ron Reigns:
And I guess in the end, it doesn’t even matter. It shouldn’t matter.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It doesn’t change you. I guess, I could take the stand of my conception doesn’t change who I am.
Ron Reigns:
Exactly.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The circumstances of it don’t… Yeah and I think that regardless, speaking for the children that were conceived out of rape. I don’t think that, that makes them any less than. I don’t think that it makes… They’re not cursed. They’re not any… Again, they… It’s a terrible situation and it’s one, I wouldn’t wish on anybody. But again, when you’re thinking about a baby, the baby as a whole… If you saw two babies and were presented with them, and one of them had been conceived in love, and one of them had been conceived in rape. By looking at the babies, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, does that mean it’s harder on the mother as she’s carrying? Yes. Does that mean that she would need more support and resources and more services to help her through this? Because, this may be a constant reminder and she may not want, or be emotionally able to parent that child. And that’s okay. That’s where adoption becomes an incredible blessing because it’s an option to where it can be a win for the child and a win for an adoptive family. Maybe it’s not a win for the birth mother, but two out of three people win in that situation. And again, with the right services and the right support, maybe some of the bad can be changed into good.
Ron Reigns:
I have another question. You have a background in psychology, so you would know the answer to this more than I do. You say, it may not be a win for the birth mother. But with the benefit of hindsight, do you think in 20 years, 30 years from now, she can look back and even look at that child as it grows, whether she raises it or an adoptive family raises it and see what that child grows into. Don’t you think that could be a net benefit for the birth mother as well, psychologically?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes, I do. I do. Some women that I’ve spoken with are birth mothers, will tell me the look on the face of the adoptive mother when I hand her the baby for the first time. Or, she’s in the delivery room and they’re cutting the cord and they’re handing her the baby. The look on her face is worth everything that I’ve been through and worth that journey that I’ve taken to get to this moment. And as hard as that nine months may be, and again, it may be really, really tough. It may require a lot of counseling and a lot of therapy to get through that. But at the same time, abortion has a lot of aftermath that isn’t easy as well. And the trauma that ,that could create on top of a rape could be severe, long-term.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s more adding insult to injury, if you will. And so, I think that it is very difficult. That we are in a very sticky subject where people are saying, “Well, if you haven’t walked in my shoes and you haven’t walked in my shoes.” I haven’t. I may have been in your baby’s shoes, but I haven’t walked in yours. And, then the other question that I get asked, because I have four girls is, “Well, what if this was your daughter? Well, what if this was your daughter.” When I’m talking to you on the podcast, I not saying anything that I don’t preach to my girls. And would it be hard? Yeah, it would be incredibly hard. But, that’s where you get through it together. And that’s where you’re not alone. And that’s where the community steps up. If we’re not going to say that it’s not worthy of a death sentence for the perpetrator, why would it it be a death sentence for the baby?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s the way that I was looking at things. When you look at Roe v. Wade as a whole, and you look at it in context, I think that as a society, we have taken one court case and reestablished belief systems and morals and values because of what seven men decided. Men who have never given birth to a baby, never been pregnant, never had to nurse the baby, or read a pregnancy test for themselves the first time. And giving that decision to somebody, to nine men who have never been in that situation, I think is not really…
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Maybe it wasn’t the right audience, the right Supreme Court to make those judgment calls. The fact that we haven’t really as a continent almost revisited this in Supreme Court, trying to effectually overturn Roe v. Wade, I think is incredible. I think that as we learn more and we’re educating ourselves and learning more about little ones in the womb, I think that we need to take what we know and do better. They say, when you know better, do better. Well, we know better now than we knew back in 1973. So, we need to now, do better. And I don’t know, what’s your thought?
Ron Reigns:
Okay, honestly, I’m going to go ahead and disagree with you in a weird way. Now you say that maybe those men weren’t the right people to make this choice or this decision, because essentially they’re men.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There was no woman on the panel.
Ron Reigns:
Right. But, I’ve never subscribed to the idea that if you are not of a certain gender, a certain race, a certain demographic, you are not allowed to speak on or understand a situation. Do you see what I’m saying?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. I do.
Ron Reigns:
So, I don’t like the argument of these men shouldn’t make this decision because they’re men. I think, that’s as humans, we have the ability to empathize, even if we’ve never literally walked in someone’s shoes. We can understand it and make an informed decision. Do I agree with their decision? No. But, I think it’s a slippery slope to start saying, “Well, those men can’t make that decision. They’re men. What do they know?”
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. I will retract that. For me personally, I think it would’ve carried more weight had there been some women on the panel.
Ron Reigns:
Present. Okay, that’s a fair point.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It doesn’t have to… I don’t think it should have been seven or nine women, but I think the fact that it was all…
Ron Reigns:
Only men.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… on the panel. That’s the issue that I have is that, it is a very sensitive and touchy subject. It really gives the pro-choice side a leg up on their stance. Because when they’re saying, our uterus our choice, that type of thing.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They’re saying that to men. So, I see where you’re coming from. I think that if you have a panel of nine women and they are making a decision about whether or not it should become a law that after three children, men should have a vasectomy and you’re only looking at that. And men are like, “No, no, we want to right to choose. We want to right to be able to state whether or not we have this.” We are giving you the upper hand to come back by not having any men on the panel. We are stating that. That’s kind of a slam dunk. That’s the first argument you have.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s why when you have an extreme, which nine men on a panel is extreme, meaning no women on it, you’re going to come back with an extreme response. Because again, there’s no equity, there’s no equality. Women, especially in the ’70s were protesting. They had just come out of protesting. They’re burning their bras. This is obviously prior, but they’re doing all these things to substantiate their rights as a gender and equality was a big deal. So if you’re looking at it, contextually nine men on a panel telling a woman what she can and cannot do, I think, added insult to injury.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When I was having Ava, so number three, and I was in the middle of delivery, I think it was right before she crowned right, before she came out. I was saying, “Ow.” I don’t remember what was happening, but I wasn’t screaming at that moment. I was just like, “Ow, ow, ow.” And the nurse is like, “That doesn’t hurt. And my doctor is a male. And I remember him looking at her and saying, “How do you know?” I thought, that’s the right attitude.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Because, he didn’t assume that he knew anything. He didn’t insult and said, “Well, yes, it does.” It was, “Well, how do you know?” And to me, that was really powerful because he didn’t try to pretend like he knew or or pretend like she was right and she knew. Because, neither of them did. They weren’t at that moment with that baby at that position. You know what I mean? And anyway, so I think that by having nine men on a panel, just making a decision that affects both men and women, but physically affecting only women, it opens you up.
Ron Reigns:
I think that’s a fair argument. And I think that’s important for us to do this. This is exactly what I have told my son to do a million times, listen to both sides and try and not just listen, but understand where they’re coming from.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.
Ron Reigns:
And maybe, we will find some common ground.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I do understand where they’re coming from. I do think that men can speak on behalf of women. But, when you are making a humongous decision and one that solely physically impacts and affects one gender to not have anybody on that panel of that gender, I think is a misrepresentation.
Ron Reigns:
That’s a fair point.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
At least have one or two on there. Even if they haven’t had an abortion or they haven’t been pregnant. But it’s like… That just seems like that gives pro-choice so much power.
Ron Reigns:
I understand what you’re saying. I still think I disagree, but it’s given me something to ponder.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s the point, right? We can agree to disagree.
Ron Reigns:
Absolutely. Tune to birth mother matters and adoption next time for part three of our three part series, Two Lives, One Choice, and we’ll be discussing the new FX documentary, aka Jane Rowe. If you are listening and dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption Building Arizona Families as a local Arizona adoption agency available 24×7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112. That’s 623 695 4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just give you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com. We also have a website for this podcast at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Thanks go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song ‘I don’t know,’ as our theme song. And as always, we thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters and Adoption written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please wait and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. Tune in next time to Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.