Ron Reigns:
Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.
Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.
Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.
Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President and Co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, The Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me Campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies in human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother. Raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
Ron Reigns:
Today on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, part one of our two-part series on raising and parenting a child adopted at birth.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And we’re clarifying this because there’s so many different types of adoptions, even within our agency of older children, or maybe a grandparent adopting their grandchild, or a stepparent adoption. But today we’re just going to be focusing on raising or parenting a child that was adopted at birth. So I really want to address this topic from different perspectives to open up the gamut of approaches.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
One thing that is important, if you take away anything from this podcast is this, parenting an adopted child has the same two factors as any other type of parenting a child, you have a parent and a child. And we’re going to learn throughout this podcast that really when you’re parenting a child that was adopted at birth, the major difference in parenting that child versus parenting a child that is biologically yours is really going to be what you add in, not what you take away. And that’s really important to remember.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So before we go into some suggestions and some ideas, one thing that is important is to really break down some variables that may affect a parent, and this could be biologically or adopted. And then to go into the parenting styles and find out which parenting style you one, would like to be and the one that you ideally in reality, I should say, identify with. In other words, you may want to use this type of parenting style, but in reality, maybe you’re over on this planet.
Ron Reigns:
Right, that makes sense.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Because we all have in our heads, what type of parent we want to be. So a lot of this will be applicable to parents who have not even adopted child, but are just parenting. And interesting for me because I am parenting my biological children and my stepchildren, and I hate the word step, but my stepchildren and I was an adopted child. So there’s a lot of dynamics.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So some variables that may impact or affect the way a parent, and then in parentheses parents of the child, would be the gender of the child. Growing up, I was raised in a two-parent family and I was never taught how to mow a lawn. My dad did not think that a girl should mow a lawn.
Ron Reigns:
Interesting.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so I was never taught how to mow lawn. And a lot of people say that, that’s interesting. And I will tell you-
Ron Reigns:
But I think it’s accurate. Even from a man’s point of view I thought, Who hasn’t been taught to mow lawn? And then I thought back to actually my childhood, I was like, My sisters never mowed the lawn, it was always me and my brother. Always. Or my mom. Which is odd because she’s a feminine woman. But yeah, she knew how to mow a lawn and she taught us to mow a lawn. But the sisters probably to this day, don’t know how to mow a lawn. Okay.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So this is what’s interesting is I have four girls, not one of them have ever mowed a lawn. And it’s not something that I consciously said, Oh, now they’re not mowing the lawn, no way. The boys do it.
Ron Reigns:
Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Gender affects whether we consciously or subconsciously… how we are raising our child. Now another point would be in the toys that we choose for our children. So biologically I had three girls and a boy. And I remember being stumped walking through, he was three and four, looking at all the toys and thinking, Wow, these are really different than the girl toys. And then I’m longingly looking back at the girls, the familiar aisles with the babies.
Ron Reigns:
I want to shop here, not over here.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The bows, yeah. I love my son to death, but cars and trucks that’s very different. And when I had my ultrasound and we found out that it was a boy, I was stumped because I was sure I was having another girl. And I was excited to have a boy, but then I thought, Oh no, I can’t put a bow on his head. Because I’m the mom that has the big bows on her head, and the [inaudible 00:06:03] that, It’s okay honey, just put a truck on his head. And I thought, No, that’s not cute. And then she’s like, or baseball cap and I’m thinking it’s not a bow.
Ron Reigns:
Right. So you’ve had to adjust to that. And there’s so many aspects of gender that… I mean, I think of my son, when he would fall down and scrape his knee, I would be like, Get up and rub some dirt on it, you’re going to be fine. But if I had a girl, I know that I would’ve been like, Oh my God. She’s so fragile, she’s going to get broken. I got to pick her up and hold her and nurture that. So just the attitude from your mindset is different.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. And exactly the way that if you watch how, especially a father, speaks to a boy versus how he speaks to girls, it’s very different. And so that is definitely a factor that may impact and affect the way… Sometimes I think, again, we don’t even realize that we’re doing that, like with mowing the lawn.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The relationships that a parent has with their own parents. You often hear like, Oh, I’m not going to be like my mom, when I’m a mom. I’m not doing this. I’m not doing that. But yet you’ll find aspects where you do. Things will come out of your mouth and you’re like, Oh.
Ron Reigns:
And you step back and you go, I am my dad or I am my mom. I’m exactly like them. Right?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Or you’ll purposely, as a parent, do the opposite just to be… You know what I mean? Oh, well they did this, so now I’m going to go take it to another extreme.
Ron Reigns:
I know my parents screwed up when they did things, so I’m doing it completely different. Right?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right, right, right. Parents’ own temperament, their level of education, the culture, the socioeconomic status, and the influence of their spouse are huge, huge factors. And I lump these all together because when you look at them, you think, Oh, wow. Well now we’re stereotyping. We’re not stereotyping at all. We’re actually, this is…
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So if you have a really lackadaisical personality, you’re just chill, nothing gets you excited… Okay. So if you’re just a chill kind of person and you’re laid back, the chances of you being an authoritarian parent are probably pretty slim and we’re going to learn about that in a little bit. Because you’re not going to take the energy, effort to really hone in on discipline and structure and respect and so that’s going to weigh into parenting.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Your level of education. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and so there’s all these theories of how to raise a child, and what impacts what. And honestly, a lot of them as you’re parenting fly right out the window. Because in the moment you’re not thinking, Oh, that cognitive theory, well that needs to come into play right now, as your son has just drawn all over the wall, I have a picture of this, or is sitting in the drawer of the silverware as he’s smiling at you because he’s climbed all the way up. So-
Ron Reigns:
[crosstalk 00:09:20] Look at this. Look what I did mom.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. You’re not thinking of that moment of, Oh, well the cognitive theory says that I should respond in this manner. You’re thinking, Oh my gosh, grab him out of a drawer before the drawer collapses.
Ron Reigns:
Before he gets a fork in his leg. Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Culture and socioeconomic status. So this is funny, and all seven of our kids will laugh at this. And my adoptive mom will laugh at this, if she hears this podcast. I was raised in a upper middle class home and my adoptive mother is very, very insistent on table manners. Very, very insistent and-
Ron Reigns:
[Emily Post 00:10:08], right?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… Absolutely. She wants everybody at the table though, to share her philosophy. And it’s a good one. There’s nothing wrong with it. But everybody needs to have, myself included, to this day needs to have that standard of table manners. And so she wants everybody to use table manners in preparation for eating possibly at the White House. Now, none of us are going to eat at the White House.
Ron Reigns:
You never know.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well. And so all of the kids will say, Okay, it’s eating at the White House, we got to get ready. We’re going to eat as if we’re eating there. So if we go there we won’t embarrass her and we’ll show them that we know how to use our silverware, and not put our elbows on the table, and not lean over our food, or smack our lips as we’re eating, or talk with our mouthful. There’s the whole list of what you don’t do.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Now, an example of that would be my biological mother, who’s from West Virginia and really wasn’t focused on table manners. That wasn’t something that she would’ve vested time or effort or energy into.
Ron Reigns:
It wasn’t that high priority. It was-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right, I wouldn’t believe it was on the list.
Ron Reigns:
Fair enough.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Also, the influence of your spouse. If you have a spouse that is very diligent and has his own, or her own parenting values and wants them instilled, that will also affect the way that you parent, because you want to be a cohesive unit.
Ron Reigns:
You want to be a cohesive unit but you also, in a lot of ways, want to compliment each other in the areas. I don’t want to stereotype people, but many times the father is the authoritarian, whereas the mother is the nurturer. Or a lot of times I’m sure it’s the opposite, but-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well, no. I think the way you said it was right. I mean, that’s how as a society we grew. I mean, the father was the hunter and the gatherer and he brought in the food and the mother was at home taking care of the children and raising them. And so we are still evolving from that. So I think in a lot of ways, that’s still very relevant today.
Ron Reigns:
Right. The father is kind of teaching the values of, Okay, this is how you survive and-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And provide and…
Ron Reigns:
… provide for your family when you get old enough. And the mother’s like, And this is how I take care of your wounds when you fall in skin your knees.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I was going to say the same thing. And this is the mom putting the bandaid on and brushing her hair and… Yes. Yes. Also, I think personal experiences very much shape how you parent as well. When I was in high school, I was riding a bike down a very busy street and it was a PE class, it was a bike riding PE class, which sounds so weird. And I crossed a lane and I… Closest near death experience ever and scared everybody behind me. It scared me. I mean, I could feel the heat from her car. It was really bad. And thank goodness she missed.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But to this day, I don’t know that my oldest daughter can ride a bike. If so, barely. My two girls can ride a bike and my son can, but it’s not something that I ever emphasized. You know what I mean? I always kind of held my breath and just… I’m not really fond of it. I would never get on a bike again. And so because of my experience, it unfortunately has shaped theirs.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And as much as I’ve tried to just not grimace or look away when I know they’re going to ride a bike and of course they’ve got their helmet on and their pads and everything else, and I’m sitting there thinking, Ugh, it still has shaped it.
Ron Reigns:
So I’m curious about your actual experience because I know how we grew up, again, also in the seventies, eighties era, were you wearing helmet and pads at the time?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No.
Ron Reigns:
Yeah, because we just didn’t back then. It wasn’t a thing. And now you see all these kids. And again, my initial reaction when I see kids riding around on bikes with helmets, it’s always that second glance of, Oh, okay. That’s right. That’s a thing now.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. Now when I see them, I think, Oh, that’s a good parent. That’s a good parent. And when I see the kids that are not, I try very hard not to be judgemental because I want to be like, Oh, where’s your helmet? I want to lean my head out the window and be like, Where’s your helmet? Go home and put your helmet on.
Ron Reigns:
You’re helicopter parenting other kids. Good job.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. So yes, having worked in the school for so long and raising so many of my own kids, it’s very hard for me not to let that bleed out and- [crosstalk 00:15:08]
Ron Reigns:
That instinct. Yeah.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… parent everybody else’s. So, conscious effort not to. Your employment. So again, I worked in a school and my oldest daughter was in kindergarten when I started at one of the school districts. And I remember thinking and telling her, “You have to really behave here because I’m going to be embarrassed if you go and you’re naughty in school, because it’s going to make me bad.” And you know, she was five and she said, “Okay, mom.” She was so cute.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And then I heard a story and I love this. When I had stopped obviously and what moved onto the adoption agency and years later, there was a vice principal at the school that one of our children went to. And her daughter was I think on her phone or doing something during class, she was in sixth or seventh grade, that she wasn’t supposed to be doing. And at that moment, vice principal became mom again and marched into the classroom and picked it all up in front of all the other students and took it and walked right back out of the room. And I thought, Good for you. And so it was one of those moments where I thought, I hope she wasn’t embarrassed because we’re all parents that have kids here and we get it. I had-
Ron Reigns:
Oh, you hoped the mother wasn’t embarrassed?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.
Ron Reigns:
Who cares if the kid was embarrassed because-
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Oh, I did care [inaudible 00:16:39] referring the mother.
Ron Reigns:
Okay, good. I just wanted to make sure we’re on the same page.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
[inaudible 00:16:43] No, not at all. I had another parent who I will never forget. And it was at the first school that I worked at and she had a seventh grade girl that thought it was cool to skip class. And so obviously her grades were starting to plummet. She would just ditch all the time. And I spoke with the parent as a school counselor and I said, No, this is really a problem. And the woman was probably eight, eight and a half months pregnant with another child. And she said, I got this. And I thought, Okay. And she said, I’m going to be a visitor for a while. And I thought, Okay.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so what she did was she for the next, it was about a week maybe 10 days, went with her daughter to every class. So her daughter was this cool kid with her very pregnant mother standing behind her, following her from class to class, because they changed classes in seventh grade. So she would sit in the desk right behind her daughter. And anytime her daughter did something that she shouldn’t, she’d lean over and flicker in the ear or tap her shoulder and-
Ron Reigns:
I’m still here, right?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… Yeah. And her daughter never missed another class because she did not want her very pregnant mother, and then after she had the baby, she surely didn’t want the baby and her mother sitting behind her. So her cool status went way down, real quick. I thought it was amazing. And I can tell you all the other kids are thinking, I don’t want that. I don’t. No, thank you.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I did become that mother a few times. When my oldest daughter had to wear glasses and she didn’t want to wear them. And it was before we got her contacts. And I remember thinking, Okay. So when there were school functions and my younger ones had Halloween parades or something like that, I would walk over to where her grade level would be.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And there was this one time where, she’s supposed to have her glasses on, and she’s sitting there hanging out with the very boy that I told her she did not need to be hanging out with. So I walked over and put my arm around her and guided her away and asked her where her glasses were and why she’s standing next to him. And I remember her thinking, Oh. Just groaning.
Ron Reigns:
Mom.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Because she’s like, You’re here. And I said, I’m always here. That’s what I… You know what I mean? I’m always here.
Ron Reigns:
You can’t get away with nothing. Right. I love it.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, when they say that socioeconomic status, I want to go back to that, that that plays a factor. It can because you talk about, Oh, well I’m going to put my child in a private school or I’m going to put… It’s not that you can parent better. It’s just you may have different choices that are available to you if you have a different status, a different socioeconomic status. It’s not it’s better or worse.
Ron Reigns:
And you may have different priorities as well.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well, I mean, maybe you have to work more. Maybe in order to make that level of income, maybe you have to work more and you have to employ a nanny, which will then take away some of the influence of your own parenting. So there’s trade ins and trade outs.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Mistakes that we made as parents when we were younger, I know I try to steer my kids away from making those same mistakes. So I hope my adoptive mother is not listening at the moment but I did, admittedly, sneak out the window because I was on the first floor at night. Yeah. I know shocking. When I was a teenager-
Ron Reigns:
I think I’m having a heart attack over here. Good Kelly sneaking out.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I did. Yeah. I will say that all of our doors and windows have alarms on them. So I will know if they’re ever opened.
Ron Reigns:
Because you know the tricks, right?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s a mistake mine aren’t going to make.
Ron Reigns:
Good for you. Excellent.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. So is there any that you can think of? Mistakes that you made, that you were able to curtail for your son?
Ron Reigns:
As far as when I was a kid, as opposed to when I became a parent and I’m like, Okay, I know I need to watch for this. Nothing specifically, but absolutely the ideas of, I know how I thought as a kid or as a teenager and what I thought I could get away with. And yeah, you close those curtains, you say, Okay, you’re not going to get away the way I did.
Ron Reigns:
And so I can’t think… Like I said, nothing specific, but I know exactly what you’re talking about and you do. And you’re hoping that as they get older, they do the same. You want the next generation to improve each time and get better at parenting or get better at being a kid and stuff. So, yeah.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. So it’s funny. So social media can absolutely influence the way you parent. So I unfortunately am… We’re all living in this social media time. And it is not easy and I think very much complicates parenting because the influences that come in and your kid wants to be cool and be on social media. And yet at the same time, you have to weigh the risks and the consequences of what can happen.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so being diligent and checking social media and being on it and trying to monitor it. And yet, I mean, the apps that come, I mean, Instagram and Snapchat and then now TikTok. And I’m still trying to figure out how Snapchat works and now there’s TikTok. And now TikTok is this new thing and-
Ron Reigns:
I’m stuck on Myspace. Grandpa Ron over here with his MySpace.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah, yeah. TikTok isn’t your future.
Ron Reigns:
Huh?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I remember when I first heard it, I thought, Oh, that’s the name of a song. And I thought, I’m more with it than they think.
Ron Reigns:
Mom’s cool.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. Not knowing, social media app.
Ron Reigns:
Yeah. And these things pop up and you never know, obviously, which one is going to be the next popular one? Who’s going to be the next Facebook or the next Twitter? And I can’t even name them all, Vigo and TikTok and there’s a bunch of them and I’m like, I’m not getting into all that. Thankfully, my son’s grown.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Uncle Ron, we have four teenagers. So anytime you want an education in any of the social media, I will be happy to send one up there. I’ll even put a bow on their head.
Ron Reigns:
Would you?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You can choose. You got two of each.
Ron Reigns:
Send a boy with a bow. Thank you.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You got it. Outside perceptions to I mean, when you walk into the grocery store, you don’t want to be that mom that is screaming at your child. And as they’re grabbing for the candy and asking every three steps, can I have that? Can I have that? Can I have that? Can I have that? And so you’re trying to… You do want, I think most of us want.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
People to look at it and be like, Oh, okay. Normal, they’re not like a single file duck line. They’re not… I mean, that would be nice, but it’s not realistic. You know, I’ve got one kid hanging off of a grocery cart, the other kid’s running in circles, the other one’s bringing me all this stuff they think that we need.
Ron Reigns:
Mom, we need this 30 pound bag of rice. Why?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. Yeah.
Ron Reigns:
Because it’s fun to carry. That’s why.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so it’s… you just don’t… I mean, you walk in the aisle and you’re like, Okay, if you’re really good throughout the grocery store, you can pick one thing. And of course, they pick the family size jumbo bag of [Takis 00:25:01], you know what I mean? So you’re thinking, Okay. I was thinking a Kit Kat, not the 50 pound bag of…
Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Not the Costco size Takis.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right.
Ron Reigns:
Now who’s worse about that though? I’m just curious because I know Adam, your husband, very well. And I know he loves those Takis, who’s worse about the Takis, the kids or Adam?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
He will buy them and then give them to the kids and then wind up sharing them with them.
Ron Reigns:
Okay.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So he won’t buy himself a bag and he’s the most generous person in the world.
Ron Reigns:
Oh, absolutely.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So he will buy all of them. Each a bag and then partake.
Ron Reigns:
Okay. Fair enough.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah, he’s good. And I will tell you that they get a lot more when they go with him. He is… Like I said, he will buy them… They love to go to store with him because he’s way more generous-
Ron Reigns:
He’s going to spoil them.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes, whereas I am more of the no mom. No. No. No.
Ron Reigns:
I’ll tell you what kids, you get one Twix and you got to split it. Right. Each. You get the left, you get the right. That’s all.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And remember the rule too. The person who breaks it doesn’t get first choice.
Ron Reigns:
Right. Absolutely.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. When you have this many kids, we have it all broken down. We got this, we got this in spades.
Ron Reigns:
And this is where we’ll pick it up next time for part two of our two-part series on raising and parenting a child adopted at birth. Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption, Building Arizona Families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at 623-695-4112, that’s 6-2-3-6-9-5-4-1-1-2.
Ron Reigns:
We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about Building Arizona Families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com.
Ron Reigns:
Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song I Don’t Know as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns.