Ron Reigns:
Welcome. And thank you for joining us on birth mother matters in adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid. And that’s not fair.
Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.
Speaker 6:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.
Speaker 7:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president and co-founder of building Arizona family’s adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans foundation and creator of the ‘You Before Me’ campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies in human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Raines. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife. Who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
One topic that we have visited more than a few times, but I still feel is really relevant and needs to be addressed, are common misunderstandings surrounding adoption. And this is important because one of the goals of the podcast is to educate society and to really understand what’s true about adoption and what’s not true. And other than you and I going over and kind of reinforcing what is true versus what is a myth. I mean, we’re like the myth busters, and that was a great show, by the way.
Ron Reigns:
I love that show.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that this is a way that we can get information out. And I know that the way that I can remember facts the most easily is when I can relate them to something else. And so what I thought we would do is intermix a lot of these facts with stories and what we can do is hopefully as people are listening and learning, they will be able to remember some of these because when you’re hearing things they say you have to hear something, read something, and then there has to be more than one avenue or venue in which to internalize it.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so we’re going to kind of try and do that this way. So, as we’ve talked about birth mothers love their babies and a common misconception is, why would somebody be able just to give away a baby and nobody is giving away a baby. When my mom placed me for adoption, she wasn’t giving me away.
Ron Reigns:
Well, as we’ve said before, we like to use the word place. We’re lovingly placing those babies. And so often, and I’ll go back to this again, when we talk to some of these birth mothers. So many of them say, “I gave up my baby. I gave my baby away”. They use that terminology all the time, but the fact is, they’re not giving that baby away. They’re placing it in a home. That’s able to care for the child more than they can in their current circumstances.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Because this is such a loving decision on their behalf. It’s important to understand that they’re facing fear factors. And then that immediately makes me think of the show fear factor, which also was great, that society itself may not realize. So there may be little support from friends or family and members. So when my mother had me and she was pregnant with me, she found out three weeks before I was born. And only two of her sisters knew, and her mother, that I was coming. Maybe one of her older brothers that has since passed, but I’m not sure. And when I was born, and she was in the hospital and then she came back home, I wasn’t spoken of for years and years and years. So there was a lot of family members that had no idea that I existed. And so there wasn’t somebody that she could go to and talk to and confide in about her feelings or anything.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So she really had no support. Drug use and homelessness are very common reasons for adoption. In my mother’s case, that wasn’t the reason. It was the fact that she had just turned 16 when I was born. And my mother was the third youngest of nine. My biological grandmother was a single mom at the time and she wasn’t wanting or willing to raise another baby. And that’s totally understandable. She was working all the time. It really wasn’t feasible. And on top of it, they knew less than three weeks before I was born.
Ron Reigns:
Wow. Do you think that has changed over the years? I mean, I’m sure even back then, you were somewhat of an outlier kind of case because your birth mother was so much younger and by and large, the birth mothers that you see and that I see coming through are in their mid-twenties and older. And it is more of like the prevalence of drugs is higher nowadays or at least than what your case was. Obviously. Do you think that has been a societal change? And do you think also that with the more open adoptions that there’s a little more support for the birth mothers? Or am I wrong about that? I mean, is it still…?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No, no. You’re not wrong. I think I was more of an outlier-ish type case because even today, less than 1% of teenagers choose adoption. I don’t know that if my mother had made the sole decision that she would’ve chosen adoption, this was more of a decision of my grandmother. And during this timeframe, in the seventies, a lot of women who were in the middle to upper class were sent away when they were pregnant and they would go off to those maternity homes have the babies place, the baby, and then come back and nobody would ever know that they had a baby and placed a baby. And that’s what happened with these teenagers. My mother hid it and said she didn’t know, but basically at that time they were wearing a lot of those like mock dresses and…
Ron Reigns:
That kind of hide the pregnancy a little bit. Certainly.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
She said that she just didn’t know which I teased her about before she passed away a lot that she didn’t know.
Ron Reigns:
Sure, ma. Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So I think that it is very different. I think that today we do see a lot of women in their twenties and in their thirties and some, even in their forties. And we do see some teenagers, but that’s not what we see. I would say less than 10% of what we see. In terms of drug use and homelessness. Yes, those are very prevalent. Now, obviously you’re going to see homelessness much more 18 and up because 16-year-olds are still mostly residing with their family members. So yes, you are correct. The drug use I think now I think one, it is more, in my opinion, it is more prevalent in that there are more types of drugs that people are now abusing they are affecting all levels of society. When I was growing up, if you hear somebody was on drugs, it was like, whoa, oh, my gosh. And back in that day, you’d think, oh, they’re on drugs. Do they have HIV? That was the big…
Ron Reigns:
Again like this, there’s a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings of what drugs do. I think a lot of us have never been in that world or done a lot of those things.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I find that really interesting too, because I am vanilla. I am much more on the side… I went to college and I went to ASU and at the time it was considered the third biggest party school in the country. And it’s so funny because I never even went to a college party and I was really straight. And so when I’m listening to our clients, talk to me about drug use and how it makes them feel. There is a barrier in some aspects because I can’t relate to that. I don’t know what it feels like for a birth mother when they’re saying they’re chasing that first high. In theory, you can read about it and all that, but unless you have experienced it just like, unless you’ve experienced placing a baby for adoption, you really don’t know the emotions, the angst, the heartache that they do go through when they’re going through their stages of grief.
Ron Reigns:
In a way, you can empathize, but you can’t sympathize. You haven’t walked in those shoes. So you can academically look at it and go, I understand this, but it’s hard to genuinely understand it unless you’ve literally been there.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
One story that is kind of funny when I was going through my master’s degree. One of the requirements was that you attend two AA meetings and I remember thinking, oh, wow, okay. Well, I’m working at the time and I’m thinking, I wonder if anybody I know that I’m working with is going to be at the AA meetings and they’re going to wonder why I’m there. And obviously, I can’t say I’m here for a research project because you want to blend in. And so I remember walking in and sitting down and, of course, it was pretty full. I mean, there were a lot of people there and I was young. Probably 25 maybe and I’m sitting there and I hadn’t really researched a lot about the AA meetings, so I’m going through it and I’m listening.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And the gentleman next to me absolutely reeks of alcohol. And so then I’m thinking I’m in the AA meeting. I’m not in the NA meeting or co al-anon meeting. And so we go through the meeting and then afterwards I kind of snuck out the back door because I didn’t… After everybody held hands and did the whole chant and everything. I mean, for a first comer I really didn’t know what to expect. I probably should have researched a little bit more going in. So I knew what the whole process was. I remember going back to my teacher and saying, so the gentleman next to me was not sober. And she said, “no, honey, you just have to have the desire to be sober”. Well, I thought, oh, that makes sense. Of course. So you go to the AA meetings. Okay. Got it, got it. Got it. So I had to go to the second one and again, I’m thinking, so if I see somebody I know to do I go up and do I say hi? Do I like, what do you … you know what I mean?
Ron Reigns:
How do you handle that situation?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. I mean, are they going to judge me because here birth mothers are afraid of being judged. I’m thinking, are they going to judge me? They’re going to be like, oh, she’s an alcoholic. But yet I can’t wear a shirt that says I’m here because class and so I went to the second one and it was different a little bit. I mean, it was the same group, but it was different people. And it was hard to relate because I wasn’t obviously an alcoholic. And I’m watching all of these people chanting and telling their stories and supporting each other. And I think that it was incredibly powerful experience for them, but because I wasn’t in their canoe-
Ron Reigns:
-You weren’t feeling that power.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
-No, I wasn’t. And so I think that is one of the reasons that birth mothers who I’ve talked to have said, “I really want to talk to another birth mom”, which is why we have the aftercare program, because unless you’ve walked in my shoes, you’re not going to understand.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So me standing in that AA meeting was awkward, uncomfortable, and it was something that I hope to God, I never have to attend again because it was not something that… It wasn’t in my comfort zone whatsoever. So birth mothers are very afraid of being judged for their adoption choice. When they are around friends and the friends are like, Hey, let’s throw a baby shower. It’s really hard to explain; I’m not keeping the baby. And I’ve had birth mothers that still had a baby shower. And then they gave all of the items and gifts to their adoptive family. But that’s really hard, too. And so I think that if we can eliminate that fear of judgment, actually I think more women would choose adoption over abortion because when women go and have an abortion, I would say the vast majority of them are not posting on Facebook. Hey, going to have my abortion today. You know what I mean? This is the baby. This is ultrasound. They’re not celebrating this, and-
Ron Reigns:
-They’re not putting it out there. Right? Like, Hey everybody check it out.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And one of our goals is obviously to promote adoption over abortion. And that being said, I think that if we would continue to normalize and make adoption less stigmatized and stereotyped, I really think that we would have an increase in adoptions. When a birth mother is going through her adoption journey, it is not all sunshine, rainbows, roses. It’s really not. There are parts of the adoption journey that are difficult. And it’s almost like if you’re traveling on the adoption road and there’re some hills as you’re going through it, I don’t know that the general public would really know what those hills would look like. It can be anything from attending an OBGYN appointment because when you go to one, they start talking to you about your baby and how excited you are and let’s measure the baby, listen to the heartbeat.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And sometimes the birth mothers have not disclosed to the doctor yet. Hey, I’m placing my baby for adoption. And again, the fear of that judgment, they want to be accepted just like all of us do, and they don’t want to be looked at differently. So having to explain their adoption choice, whether it’s to an OBGYN nurse, or a doctor, or a friend who wants to throw them a baby shower, it can be really hard. Another time is when they have been given adoption profile books and they’re seeing faces of real people, even though they’ve signed preliminary paperwork to work with the agency, seeing faces of real people that may become the adoptive parents to your baby is really like being in the dark and turning the light on all of a sudden.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s that shock value of jumping in a cold pool and some birth mothers struggle, some cry, some who are very grounded in their adoption choice and have maybe done this before, or have really prepped themselves take a long time and go through the books and really scrutinize. Moms that are struggling or become very emotional will often go through them very fast and choose.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Making an a adoption plan. Just going back to the beginning of their adoption journey and saying, “okay, I’m here at the intake and I’m choosing adoption” and learning about adoption and asking those preliminary questions. That’s hard; that’s really hard. Before they have the baby and go to the hospital when they are reviewing the adoption paperwork that they’re going to sign after the baby’s born. That also is like seeing, okay, so this is the language that’s in the adoption, and this is what it’s going to look like when the time comes in some aspects. I think it’s amazing that they get to see it ahead of time. So they’re not reading it for the first time in those moments when it’s time to actually sign the final paperwork. But it’s also it’s hard.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s like dipping your foot in a really cold pool before you have to jump in, would be 1/10th or 1/1000th of what they’re going to feeling. The birth of their baby which is one of the most exciting times in their life. But at the same time, one of the hardest, because when a mom is carrying a baby, they’re one, and then when the baby’s born, they become two and women who parent after the birth of their baby, sometimes still struggle, with the postpartum depression, because they’re no longer physically attached to their baby. And so a mother that is placing her baby for adoption may have that tenfold or 20 fold or 30 fold because again, she’s being separated from her baby physically.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And then again, physically leaving the hospital is always an emotional time. I shouldn’t say always; for many, many women, it is a very difficult time because even though that’s not the last time they may see their baby and that’s not the goodbye moment. It still is again that separation.
Ron Reigns:
And it feels very real at that point. It’s very solidified because of what she’s going through.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s more distance. And then, ultimately, obviously saying goodbye is very difficult as well. I have seen many birth mothers that are our younger birth mothers that come into our agency, have themselves aged out of foster care and they’re making an adoption choice because they don’t want their baby to have the same life that they have. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen a 19-year-old, 18-year-old come into our program. And she has told me that I was in the foster care system and nobody adopted me and I aged out and my caseworker drove me to the shelter and handed me $50. And I got pregnant.
Ron Reigns:
I don’t want to pass that tradition on I…
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. That’s really hard to hear and it’s heartbreaking because you’re looking at her and she’s so young. Again, she’s alone in the world. She doesn’t have anybody else. And so it’s tough. It’s really tough and kudos to them because they’re breaking the cycle.
Ron Reigns:
I agree.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that is really, really amazing. Sometimes we have birth mothers that have placed before and they come back and place again. And it is hard to watch because this isn’t something that we would ever want somebody to have to experience once, much less twice. But we understand that it happens; unplanned pregnancies do happen. Oftentimes people who don’t understand adoption or what happens with birth moms will say things like, “wow, she’s coming on two adoptions”. And you look at them and you think, okay, well, if you speak to a woman that has had an abortion, ask her how many she’s had.
Ron Reigns:
That is a good point. Absolutely.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And you might be very surprised at the answer. We’ve had women on our show that have had seven, eight abortions. And I think that, again, we are not aware of how much or how many abortions are occurring, but yet we’re going to focus on a woman who’s placing two babies for adoption. So you just have to look at the context and really understand what is really going on rather than turning a blind eye one and focusing on another.
Ron Reigns:
Right. And we need to change that societally too, to where people, again, celebrate this decision as opposed to looking down on it. And I think most people do, but sometimes that initial reaction of, oh my gosh, this is your second, third baby that you’re placing. And just maybe even that surprise is kind of hurtful to the birth mother. That’s going through it, and I think we need to change. We need to educate.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Very much so. We had a birth mother that came back to us and she said, “I almost didn’t come back to your agency because I was so embarrassed that I had already placed a baby”, and I thought, first of all, don’t ever be embarrassed because you’re making a beautiful choice. And second of all, things happen and we’re not here to judge we’re here to help. I was grateful that she chose us to come back to. So there are also some bittersweet moments, those moments that are really hard, but also amazing. Some of those would include the ultrasound. So some birth moms hate going to ultra sounds because it’s too hard. They don’t want to see the baby. They want to distance themselves. And other birth moms want to see the baby and it’s hard. And it’s very interesting because when birth mothers have an ultrasound a lot of times, they give you the pictures. They’ll give you the pictures of the baby-
Ron Reigns:
-The strip of… Right, right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. And sometimes we’ll have birth mothers that just immediately hand it over to the caseworker. And then we have other birth mothers that will sit there and hold the picture and say, “I want to keep this”. And obviously they can do what they want to. And then we have other birth mothers that will take pictures and then hand it to the caseworker. So it’s just interesting to see how it is.
Ron Reigns:
All the different reactions to it. And it makes sense because in the one way it really does make it real. You’re looking at a picture of a human life that’s growing inside you. That becomes concrete right at that point. And it’s also that is a human life inside me. That’s a joyous thing. Whether I’m placing my baby or not. I’m sure you get just the complete gamut of reactions to these pictures.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You do. And I have to say, especially the early ultrasounds. When I had my four biological children and I had ultrasounds, I remember the ultrasound tech was so excited and pointing out everything and then she handed it to me and I thought, no, what is… What? You know what I mean? I’m not seeing what you’re seeing. I’m really grateful that’s my baby, but I’m not seeing…
Ron Reigns:
I don’t see him waving in there at me or yeah. I mean, that’s interesting because that’s how I felt too, when we got the ultrasounds of my son, because it’s not an actual photograph It’s hard to make out those details and somebody’s telling you, okay, right there, that’s his finger sticking up and things like that. And I’m like where, okay, I…
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. And then you kind of go along with it. You’re like, oh yeah. Thinking I have no idea.
Ron Reigns:
And they probably do see that because they’re doctors and techs and stuff and they see these day in and day out. So they learn to really spot those things. But for me looking at it, it’s like looking at a Picasso going, is that an ear? Right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. I still kind of look at them and I mean, some of them I’ve learned now early on I can spot the fetal pole and the sack and all that. I can do that and then the gummy bear stage and then some of it, I just look at it and I think…
Ron Reigns:
Yeah, it’s all greek to me. Right. Yeah.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Good way to say it. Feeling their baby move. I think this is a hard one because speaking from experience, when you feel your baby move, it is like, you know your baby’s okay. Sometimes 45 minutes will go by when I was pregnant and I would think baby, hasn’t moved. So you start kind of like touching your stomach, like-
Ron Reigns:
-Is everything okay?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Good, right? You’re good. You’re good. You’re good. And so I think that when they feel the baby move, it’s a constant reminder that the baby’s saying, “Hey, I’m here, I’m here”. And I think that there’s probably some guilt, and it’s again bittersweet because these birth mothers want their babies to be fine. When there’s a medical concern or medical scare or something happens to the baby, when they’re carrying the baby, they are devastated, devastated as if they were parenting or going to parent the baby.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so they love their babies just as much as a woman who is planning on parenting their baby. So there is a lot of mixed emotions. Attending adoption counseling is another point where it is very helpful, but it’s also hard because it’s like, when you have a wound… There was a time my daughter was in cheerleading and they were running laps around the football field. And I know one of the girls was playing and kind of like pushed her shoulder. My daughter is little. So she went flying into the rocks, and she had this black little rock debris on her knee. And she came home and she was crying. And she was probably 15 or 16 and I remember looking at it and I thought, oh, that’s all going to have to come out. And I called one of my best friends who’s a nurse; come over and help.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Because I started to get a little queasy because I mean, there was a lot and I knew it was really going to hurt because I knew they all had to come out all the little rocks and debris. And I just kept thinking, I can’t inflict that pain on her. I know it has to be done. I want to be the one to hold her hand and tell her it’s going to be okay. And so my nurse friend, thank you, Beth came over and cleaned it all out for her. And we got through it and she was able to heal and move on and that’s what counseling does. It basically really goes there and makes it hurt for a little while, but then it helps you heal.
Ron Reigns:
You got to dig these rocks out.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When we have our post placement counseling sessions, it’s really interesting to watch the women will come together. We usually have a topic that we’re going to address and we’ll start with the topic and they’ll share. And then inevitably one of them pulls out their phone because they all have their phones with them and is showing the girl next to her a picture of her baby that she placed. Well, then she’s whipping out her phone and now phones are being passed all around and it’s fine because that’s the direction they wanted to go. And so we’re following the direction. It’s for them. There’s so much joy in watching their baby grow up and how happy their baby is and how well their baby’s doing. But at the same time that they’re not the ones there to [crosstalk 00:29:09].
Ron Reigns:
They’re growing up in another home with another family. Now there is that relationship with the birth mother and the adoptive family, but it’s different than your child growing up in your own home.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. And yet in looking at all of these downers that we’ve been talking about and all these hard moments, that’s why I’ve always talked about birth moms as being heroes and how we need to appreciate their sacrifice and their selfless choice because they are creating families for many people who couldn’t have the family that they’ve dreamed of happen. And as society chooses to celebrate adoption as a choice for unplanned pregnancies, this is a positive way for you to show support. Understanding that adoption truths allow facts to surface is important because facts are what we really should be basing our emotions off of and our feelings and not making judgements until we have the facts. It will also help us dissolve our myths. It takes a village to raise a child, but it takes a nation to support adoption.
Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in adoption. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption building Arizona families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112 that’s (623) 695-4112. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or just get you more information. You can also find out more information about building Arizona families on their website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Thanks also go out to Grapes for allowing us to use their song ‘I don’t know’ as our theme song. Birth Mother Matters in Adoption was written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me. Please rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We’d really appreciate it. We also now have a website at birthmothermatterspodcast.com. Tune in next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns.