Ron Reigns :
Welcome, and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.
Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.
Speaker 3:
I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.
Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.
Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m the Executive Director, President and Co-founder of Building Arizona families adoption agency, The Donna K. Evans foundation and creator of the you before me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.
Ron Reigns :
I’m Ron reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast. Today we have a very special episode of birth Mother matters in adoption, Naseem reached out to us, she’s a listener to the podcast and she wanted to let us know that she appreciates what we’re doing and getting information out about adoption. So we thought it would be nice to share her story on birth mother matters in adoption.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, Ron got some questions for her. So why don’t you go ahead and get started?
Ron Reigns :
Well, I think first we should just kind of get your story, your name is Naseem and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. Tell us about your adoption journey.
Naseem:
So I was in a relationship for six years and on again, off again, relationship. Well, I was, I told him I was not on the birth control pill anymore, right? So he knew there’s this chance of pregnancy, but we didn’t think it would happen because I never had a pregnancy scare even. Well, I got pregnant August 5th, I found out I was pregnant August 5th, 2018, just five days before my birthday, it was going to be my 35th birthday. And so anyway, our daughter was born early. She was born at 28 weeks because I had pre-eclampsia and she was in NICU for four and a half months. And during this time I realized my, the birth father was not providing like you’re supposed to, and I was very concerned because well, kids need stuff. You know, they need a lot of stuff and he wasn’t buying anything. And I was stressed because I felt like I was already a single mom.
Naseem:
I was going to the NICU every day for four and a half months to see my daughter as she grew and everything. And, and then two, I’m trying to make this as short as possible. So what happened in the end is, I started thinking about adoption possibly when I was pregnant with, her name’s Caroline. And I didn’t really want to do that. Every time I thought about it, I would break down and cry because I always wanted to be a mom. And so this was not something that was ideal for me and I knew it. I knew in my heart that I wanted to raise my daughter. I wanted her to have stability of having a father and a mother who were fully invested, not just partially and to have what she needed and I didn’t feel like that was happening at this point.
Naseem:
So anyway, I brought her from the NICU to my house and I live at my parent’s rental property for free because I makes it a little on disability. I have rheumatoid arthritis, I have autism and I know that realistically, I could not raise a child by myself. Well, we were talking about getting married. We were engaged just full time on and off and all of a sudden, whenever our home from NICU he says he can’t be with me because this is a long story. But basically CPS got involved because I wanted to get a crib for free. Since I knew he wouldn’t pay for anything. So they started doing an investigation and I spoke about his anger, some concerns I had, plus anger. Now, everything changes once you become a mom, it’s not about you anymore It’s not or a parent in general, it’s not about you.
Naseem:
It’s about the child. It’s about protecting the child, providing for the child, giving the child everything they need physically, emotionally, everything. And I wanted to give her, I would go starving before she did. Let’s just put it that way. I would go above and beyond, but had to be both of us. And there I was, he was talking about breaking up. Oh, and then I found out I was pregnant again. Two weeks after I bought her from the NICU, I found I was pregnant again. And I’m just, this is right after he told me it’s not going to work out. And I was scared to death because that meant I would be alone with her 24 /7 with very little help, because I’m not going to expect other people to do my job or to do his job, that’s not fair. And it wasn’t fair to her to not have a father who really wanted to fully be there.
Naseem:
So next thing I notice he starts coming over with his then girlfriend, who I did not like I did not trust her. My motherly intuition told me she was not ideal. And I told him from the beginning when I was pregnant with Caroline, but I did not want her involved in Caroline’s life. Well, all of a sudden he moved in with her, by the way, he moved into an apartment at first close to my house to be close to me and Caroline. Well, then he realized he couldn’t well, according to him, he realized he couldn’t afford it. And that he wanted to pay child support. Supposedly this is what he told me and so he moved in with her about 30 minutes from my house. So he moved from 10 minutes to about 30 – 35 minutes away. Next thing I know she’s coming over, even though I don’t want her to I’m alone with Caroline all the time.
Naseem:
And it was just a disaster and I, I was stressed to the max plus I was pregnant again. So first I thought about giving the new baby up for adoption, which was another girl. And I had a feeling, it was another girl before it was confirmed. And then I thought it over and I was like, is that fair to them to be a part to only see each other, maybe once a year, is that really fair to my daughters and for Caroline to be in the struggle between me and her father, because he didn’t want to pay child support. He started fighting me in court. Next thing I know I’m going to and from court and whenever I was in court, I couldn’t be with my, my daughter couldn’t be with me. So I don’t have somebody to watch her. And it was just so stressful.
Naseem:
And I didn’t think it was fair to her. I really didn’t think was fair. Seeing was just happening unwinding right before me and I, if I was selfish, I would have kept her. And I would have probably tried to keep the other girl as well, which her name is Riley they named her Riley. I named her Janet after my deceased grandmother on my mom’s side. So yeah, it was just a struggle, I was with her 24/7 by myself, pregnant, getting bigger as the months proceeded and I just, I couldn’t do it. I mean, I tried the best I could and I mean, like I said, I would have been able to do if I really had to, a mother will do whatever, it’s amazing when motherhood does to you, it changes your whole brain. It just changes you, I’m like a completely different person than I was two years ago.
Naseem:
It’s just, I can’t even explain it. So, that’s all I over. And I was like, okay, adoption for both girls. But I had to get him on board because he had rights to Caroline. Now that was the hard part. Can you decided he wants to raise her? He wanted to get primary custody of her and raise her with that woman. That was speaking of that became his girlfriend who was in the picture before all this, as his friend. And yeah, it just was a huge disaster. But I sat down and talked to him. I said, do you really think that this woman that’s been using you all these years, it’s a long story, but she’s been using him for all kinds of different things. I said, do you really think that she’s going to help your raise, Caroline? I said, in the end, it’s our responsibility to take care of her, not your girlfriends, not your sisters.
Naseem:
It’s our responsibility and if for some reason we’re able to do that, the authorities will come to us and say, well, what’s going on here? Why aren’t you taking care of her? Like you’re supposed to cause that’s what happens when CPS gets involved. Now, CPS had finished their investigation on us. They figured we were good. So, that was not a concern of mine. What was the concern was could I keep Caroline away from her sister? If my ex fought me for primary custody of Caroline and I just I’ve always wanted a sister. I have two brothers, I’m a middle child, but I don’t have a sister. And I always wanted a sister. They were literally just going to be one year and one month apart find that having her early, she was due February 18th. I had her February 11th and I actually scheduled a c-section. So the adoptive parents could be there.
Naseem:
And so her mother, her adoptive mother was there with me when I gave birth. Well, [inaudible 00:09:47], but the C-section was done she was right there beside me. And she was able to see her and hold her and so we were taking turns, holding her, taking pictures, but it was, it was just a whole different, this whole situation where I finally got him involved. So he was actually there, part of the time, the adoptive father, the birth father was also there, somewhat. So I try to make sure everybody was involved and I wanted the girls to always, know, that I’m not going anywhere. I did not abandon them. I love them with all my heart. I think about them 24/7 they’re in Connecticut, I’m in Texas. It’s really, really, really hard to be a birth mother. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life. Literally the hardest thing. And I, I cry constantly. I miss them constantly. It’s no joke.
Ron Reigns :
Now, You had some issues with your adoption journey Am I correct? You weren’t as happy with it as you thought you would be
Naseem:
Yes. Yes.
Ron Reigns :
What was that all about?
Naseem:
Now the thing that you have to accept when you become, when you go from being a mother, you have the baby with you to being a birth mother is it’s not completely in your control anymore. They have, the parental rights, you have no control over how often you talk to them or anything along those lines.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Do you have a post adoption communication agreement?
Naseem:
Yes, I do.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay.
Naseem:
But it was not mentioned to me before, like it was mentioned that it existed, but the terms of the contract were not mentioned to me until during the adoption, we were sending their signing away our rights, then she handed me the contract.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well, what about, instead of I’m just, and I’m, and I’m trying, the reason I’m asking this is because I’m thinking for moms that are listening to you, what maybe they can do so they don’t have the same feelings and aren’t going through what you’re going through right now. If you had said, Hey, could we open this up a little bit more? Could, could we have more communication? Do you feel like that would have jeopardized the adoptive family wanting to adopt your babies
Speaker 5:
Possibly, because one thing I’ve noticed is I reached out to them and through email and gave them my phone number and they haven’t contacted me through my phone. Devin emailed to me, they’ve only emailed me. They haven’t called me, they have not texted me. So, that was another concern I found them and I fell in love with them to be honest with you, they’re really great people they’re amazing and I was like, these people are the only people I really truly feel like can raise my daughters the way I want them to be raised. Like I would raise them if they were with me. So I was put in a really bad position, I feel like, because it wasn’t clear none of that information was given to me except that I would see them about once a year. That’s it. But about communication, the updates, the pictures
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
With our agency, we use a portal called child connect where you can, a birth mother can log on and send a message through it. And then the adopted family can log on and you can Skype through it and you can, you can like send pictures and all kinds of stuff. So it’s, it’s a way that you can not disclose personal information, but yet you can always log on and see if they left anything or send a picture or whatever and that way it can also help the agency track to make sure that everyone is fulfilling their end of the agreement. Do you have anything like that?
Naseem:
No, we don’t. We have email, that’s it, yeah. My, my whole idea is, why I’m here talking to you and I’m trying to reach out to other people, other birth moms or people who are considering adoption is to have a clear plan, to have a good idea of what to expect because if you don’t, you’re dealing with the hormones, you’re dealing with your longing to be with your babies, you have that sense of, I want them, I want them with me they need to be with me and you’re fighting that constantly and it hurts, it hurts to deal with that.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. So, let’s go back just a little bit and Ron, you can jump in I’m not trying to monopolize this.
Ron Reigns :
No, you’re good.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. So let, let’s go step over step. Do you regret your adoption choice? Let’s not talk about the, you know, not seeing the babies as often as you want to, but your actual choice to place them for adoption. Is that a regret?
Naseem:
Sometimes
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
What changed to make you believe that it was a choice that you wish you hadn’t made?
Naseem:
What’s changed is okay, there’s a difference between thinking about something and actually being in that moment. When you think about something, it may hurt a little bit thinking about losing your children, not well, not necessarily losing them, but not having the ability to really raise them. That thought kind of hurts. But when you’re actually in the moment you’re signing those papers and you’re watching somebody walk away with your children, then it’s reality. And that’s what hurt the most, the reality of it all they’re now miles away from me.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. So what was the primary number one reason you chose that adoption
Naseem:
For my daughters, I wanted them to be together. I wanted them to have stability. There’s no stability in my life. There’s none. And no, unfortunately, no, I don’t have a job.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. So if the circumstances that you chose adoption haven’t changed.
Naseem:
No
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And you, it sounds like you still made the right choice for your girls. It’s just you, that needs the aftercare help and it sounds like you really wanted a different type of adoption,
Naseem:
Yes.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Than you signed up for
Speaker 5:
Exactly. And the adoption is a beautiful thing. That’s one thing I want to put out there too. It’s a beautiful thing because these people that couldn’t have kids of their own, they now have kids. They have beautiful kids, beautiful, healthy kids. And now I have, in addition to my family too, because me and the adoptive parents, we’re like a little family now, we can contact each other as often as we can and everything. This is not their fault. This is nothing wrong with adoption. This is the way it was. Well, the way it worked out.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So in situations like this, what I, I strongly encourage, is two things, I would first reach out to the agency that you worked with and I would ask to speak to the worker, if you know, she’s still there at the agency, if not then her supervisor and explain that you really want more communication with the adoptive family. I would write a letter, not necessarily an email, but I would write a letter explaining your motive because sometimes adoptive families get very nervous when a birth mother says, okay, this is the communication I want. And then she comes back and she wants more and they’re afraid of, oh no. Is she going to try to contest the adoption? Is she going to try to, climb in through a window like that, all these fears going through their head. So if you break it out and you say, my motive is this.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I’m really struggling with a lack of communication. When I had began my adoption journey, I had really hoped for more of an open adoption and it looked like this to me. And then explain what you, what you were thinking and say, is there any possible way that you would consider us opening up the adoption communication more and you know, reaching a compromise with me on, what this would look like going forward. And I would also state in that email, but you know, you’re not looking to take their place you’re not looking to cause a disruption in their life, you’re not looking to take over their parenting role, you just want to be more involved. I would actually ask your agency to represent you on, on your behalf so that they can go back and talk with them.
Naseem:
The adoptive parents were so understanding. They were so sweet. They stayed with me for a while even after I’d signed my forms, they sat down and with the girls, let me hold Riley, let me see Caroline and hold her and, and know that there were there, there were fully fine. They were fine with staying there as long as they needed to. And I stopped talking to the case worker actually, because I just got so angry and I can’t help. I feel it’s just these feelings I didn’t ever expect.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And, and, and I get that. You’re not wanting to speak with a caseworker and maybe then just go to her supervisor, but they have an obligation to you to see you through this. In other words, just because you, you signed the consent documentation and placed your babies for adoption that doesn’t really mean that it’s, that they have, they have a moral obligation to say, okay, if you’re struggling with this, here we can help provide counseling. We can reach out to the family and see if we can open this up more. You know, and this is, the fact that your last child was born in February, this is really new and really raw. And so you’re still in the real grieving stage and that’s not to discount anything that’s going on at all. But I think that you, you have a situation that may really be workable in there.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In other words, I think you still may be able to obtain what your goal is. That’s where I’m trying to help, but I think you’re going to be more successful if the adoption agency is the one to reach out, ask for that. But you are still early on in the, you know, in placing the babies that you, you even haven’t settled into a groove with the adoptive family yet, meaning you guys, when, when two people first get married, they have to learn, I call it like the marriage dance, they have to learn how each other works and to, when you say something to kind of know what the response is going to be, and you and the adoptive family are probably still trying to figure each other out in that aspect, are you going to be one of those, birth mothers that adoptive parents are afraid that are going to try and take over, or are you going to be overwhelming?
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Are you going to bombard them? Or are you just going to be, the birth mom that will just soak up everything that they send and you’re not going to, be any sort of an inconvenience or anything else. So there’s trying to figure everything out. But I think that if you really want more communication, I’m not so sure that you can’t get it. I think that there is a middle ground that maybe you can find peace in that you can really, look back because you placed your children for a specific reason that reason is still in place, I mean, your circumstances haven’t changed.
Naseem:
And can I say something to all birth moms or at least anybody that’s considering adoption, adoption is a beautiful thing when it’s done correctly. It’s beautiful because you have actually an addition to your family and that’s the most amazing thing is you go from feeling alone with a baby where you’re not sure you can really give the baby what the baby needs and then you find this couple, who’s just longs to have a baby so much all they would do they would give anything, anything in the world, to have a baby, and you give them the thing that they’ve wanted for so long and you have this connection, this beautiful connection and so I don’t ever want to say anything bad about option. If it’s done correctly, it is beautiful, but you have to make sure you’re ready, you have to brace yourself for what’s to come because the hormones will take control is going to hurt so bad to be apart from your child, because all you want is to be close to breastfeed, to nurture that child, to wake up to that, child’s crying and, and put that baby back to sleep and all that.
Naseem:
That’s natural to have that. And that motherhood is also a very beautiful thing in that sense, to have those feelings for another human being that is a part of you, and that’s so dependent, but at the same time, it’s always better to be able to give your child what they need, even if you’re not able to give it specifically, somebody else out there is able and willing to do it.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah, I agree with you.
Ron Reigns :
You’re absolutely right.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Ron did you have something to add?
Ron Reigns :
I just want to reinforce what she’s saying It, adoption is a beautiful thing. And ideally what we want is an experience that’s mutually beneficial to all three sides of the adoption triad, the birth mother, the adoptive child, as well as the adoptive parents. So our hearts are with you. Okay, Naseem.
Naseem:
Thank you. And I do want to keep reaching out to people by the way. And I want people to know they’re not alone they’ll never be alone
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And let’s do this. Let’s check back in with you in a couple of weeks and see how you’re doing.
Naseem:
Okay sounds great.
Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
All right. Thank you so much for joining us.
Naseem:
Thank you. You guys are awesome. Thank you for putting it out there for people about adoption the good with the bad, because in the end you have to take everything.
Ron Reigns :
Thank you so much Naseem for reaching out to us and sharing the story of your adoption journey with us. If you’re listening and you’re dealing with an unplanned pregnancy and want more information about adoption building Arizona families is a local Arizona adoption agency and available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112 that’s 6 2 3 6 9 5 41 12. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get started on creating an Arizona adoption plan, or just give you more information. You can also find out more information about building Arizona families on their website at AZ pregnancyhelp.com. We now have a website for this podcast at birth mother matters podcast.com. Thanks, go out as always to grapes for allowing us to use their song I don’t know as our theme songs. And we also want to thank you for joining us on birth. Mother matters in adoption written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening to us. We really appreciate it. And tune in next time to birth mother matters in adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry and I’m Ron Reigns.