Ron Reigns:
Welcome. And thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 3:
Do what’s best for your kids and for yourself because, if you didn’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 4:
And I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 5:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 6:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption, and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So many times I hear from family members, friends, clients, strangers, or really anybody that catches wind that I work in the adoption field. They seem to be really curious as to what it’s really like to work in the adoption world. And my favorite go-to answer is, “It’s the best and worst job you’ll ever have,” which pretty much sums it up. There’s a lot of highs and a lot of lows.

Ron Reigns:
I think it does. Yeah. Again, we’re talking about that roller coaster and you’re riding it on a daily basis for years now.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. Correct. 15, actually.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Over 15. With working in the adoption world, you really do bond with your clients.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You are with your clients at the pinnacle of emotional times. Putting a baby in an adoptive family’s arms for the first time…

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s no words. When you are holding a birth mother’s hand as she’s delivering her child and you know that this is going to be really difficult for her, you’re there for her. It’s one of those moments that you’ll never forget the way that she looks at you and that trust that develops between the two of you. I think that a lot of times the women, the birth mothers, when they come to, they look at caseworkers. Initially, you hear the term caseworker and a lot of them relate that to either a parole officer or a child protective service officer.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Or definitely an authority figure anyway.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
Not somebody you’re going to get to know on a personal basis.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. And so, once they open up a little bit and they see that we’re really there just to support them and help them with their adoption plan, they relax a little bit and we start to learn about each other. And again, in order for a woman to feel comfortable placing a baby in an agency, she’s got to really trust the people that she’s working with, not just the adoptive family. When you’re building a relationship on both sides, there is attachment, that’s what relationship is, you start to attach to the other person. And I have seen cases where a birth mother has a harder time saying goodbye to the caseworker or the adoptive mom even than the baby.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And vice versa.

Ron Reigns:
Because they’ve actually gotten to know them in a weird way, the baby is somebody they’re just meeting?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Sure. Even though they’ve carried the baby, the whole time they have prepared themselves mentally, physically, emotionally, that this child is going to go to this family where they’re not thinking, “Okay. So once the baby is placed with the adoptive family, this caseworker, she’s not going to be in my life on a regular basis,” which is why we brought in the aftercare program so that they don’t have to go and get pregnant again just to come back and have that support system. Because sometimes you’re all they’ve got. That’s a lot of responsibility on a caseworker because you don’t want to let somebody down. But at the same time, you can only be a case worker to so many people.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So that there’s an art of transition that we’ll talk about in the future in a different podcast. But this job for a birth mother case manager is the best. When you watch a birth mother supported by a birth mother. To me, that’s a huge deal.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Because then you can see that somebody got her back and she’s not alone in this world going through an adoption plan. You want every client to have a support structure. That’s usually the first question I ask is, “Who’s your support person? Who’s got you?” When I see a birth father… again, I love that because that means together they’re making this beautiful choice for their child.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When you watch an adoptive mother be handed the baby by the birth mother, that’s another one of my favorite things. I love to watch their face because the majority of the time, I would say that’s probably their proudest moment.

Ron Reigns:
And it should be.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It should be. Absolutely. When you watch a birth mother find her wings after the adoption and discontinue the negative life cycle that she may have been living in, you watch her get her GED, or get a job, and get her own apartment. We have pictures of women holding up their keys and smiling as they’re moving in, those memories will be forever etched in my brain.

Ron Reigns:
Now, as far as, being the director of this agency, and I’m sure you see that, what’s the ratio of say women who get of that negative cycle as opposed to those who continue that?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s not as high as I would like.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, of course not. I would imagine it’s actually kind of low.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Probably 20%.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We’re hoping that will go up.

Ron Reigns:
I’m surprised it’s that high.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I don’t even know that it’s that high because a lot of them we lose some touch with because some of them just disappear. I would say the ones that enter into the program would be 20%, but not all of them enter into the program, they choose not to at that time.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So the ones that enter into the program and work the program, I mean, I’ve seen girls get long-term housing. I’ve seen them enroll in beauty college, we’ve had a couple that have gone to beauty college.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I’ve seen them go up north and get jobs at some of the resorts over by the Grand Canyon.

Ron Reigns:
Really?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, that’s neat.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so I’ve seen those success stories.

Ron Reigns:
What’s your favorite?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Those are what we strive for. Oh, my favorite. My favorite would be one that was incarcerated. She had the baby then she went in and did her time and she came out and she got her life together, she stayed clean, she got her Peer Support Specialist certification, and she got a job and housing and chose a relationship that wasn’t negative.

Ron Reigns:
Abusive or…

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
She has since had another child and is parenting that child and is maintaining the lifestyle that we would wish for her.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That is my favorite.

Ron Reigns:
Is there a biggest heartbreak story?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s too many.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I would say some of the hardest would be probably those that wind up making a bad choice and incarcerated afterwards, or when birth mothers make poor choices and don’t survive those choices. And those are really hard. Those are hard on us as a staff completely.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The other thing is you don’t, as a caseworker, ever want to see anybody struggle, it’s really hard to watch somebody struggle, and when a birth mother is placing a baby for adoption and she’s really, really struggling, it’s not that, as an agency, we want her to place the baby, but we want her to be good with her decision. And when you watch her and she’s just really having a hard time, it’s heartbreaking. It’s really heartbreaking. When a mom changes her mind and we have to go tell the adoptive family…

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… that’s really tough because it’s like watching their whole world collapse and that’s not something that you’d wish for anybody. As an adoption worker, when you develop a relationship, or so you believe, with a client and she’s been lying to you and scams you, that’s hard because you do put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into your work, and to know that it’s all for nothing…

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… that hurts. That hurts. Some of the hard stuff is why sometimes social workers realize that this isn’t the field for them because with the high highs come, the low lows, and those can be hard. I can also say that in working in adoptions, you are working all through the night. Sometimes babies are born 24-7, 365 days a year.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I learned that when my wife and I were dating. We couldn’t go on a date and have her not receive phone calls throughout.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
And have to deal with tragedies and emergencies and…

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Oh, it’s true. I’ve never, in the last 15 and a half years, I’ve never made it through a movie once.

Ron Reigns:
Without a phone call coming in.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. I will always have to sit near the edge. I will never sit in the middle of a row because I don’t want to be disruptive to everybody else.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so I will jump down.

Ron Reigns:
And you can’t turn the phone off.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No.

Ron Reigns:
Not as an adoption agency, right?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No. No because there’s people go into labor and there’s crises and everything else.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So when you’re working with birth parents, it’s really neat to watch them succeed. It’s really important when you see a birth mother and a birth father and they’re not on the same page about the adoption plan. It’s really important to make sure that you help the birth mother find a support structure, whether that’s in the form of a counselor or a family member, somebody that can help her through.

Ron Reigns:
That will be on the same page.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That will be on the same page with her.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And working with adoptive parents, it’s a whole different ball game. But again, you’re going to have very high highs and very low lows.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s a huge compliment to the caseworker and to the agency when an adoptive family chooses the agency for a second adoption. That’s a huge compliment.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Also, when they recommend another family to you, again. Even when the adoptive family recognizes how much you’ve invested blood, sweat, and tears into their adoption to make sure it’s as protected and safeguarded and successful as it can be. And they just say, “Hey, thank you. Like you really have gone that extra mile.”

Ron Reigns:
Right. To be appreciated for what you do…

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
… and the heart you’re putting into it. I understand that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That just goes so far.

Ron Reigns:
I think we all love that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Oh, for sure. For sure. When an adoptive family defers to you and trusts your judgment, that’s a really big thing to me because it says like, “Hey, I get it. I’m going to trust you and…”

Ron Reigns:
I recognize that you’ve done this before, you know what you’re doing.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
This is your first rodeo.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. When the adoptive parents don’t take your advice and jeopardize your adoption, that’s the worst. And I’ve seen that. I had a situation one time where we had a birth mother and she, I may have told this story before, she was a hundred percent on the adoption train and the adoptive mother was so anxious and paranoid that she wasn’t in a place, she started harassing her. She found out where she lived, which that’s not supposed to happen…

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… and was knocking on her door and going to the laundry room and questioning her, and the birth mother cut ties with her and chose another family and placed. And that was really sad because we couldn’t work with the adoptive family again because if they wouldn’t listen to us, I can’t have them harassing somebody.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When you watch an adoptive family’s world collapse when an adoption doesn’t go through, it’s heartbreaking. When the adoptive family blames you for something out of your control, that’s really hard too.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Like what?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well, let’s say a mom changes her mind and doesn’t place for adoption and her mother has stepped in and the adoptive a family will come back maybe and say, “Well, didn’t you find out about her mom?” And it’s not that we didn’t find out about her mom, she may have told us her mom and her don’t speak, or she may have told us her mom had CPS removal of her children.” So, there’s reasons behind…

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. It’s not that you’re not doing your due diligence.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. But when it’s questioning us, that’s hurtful because we do go so far above and beyond to safeguard everybody’s adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We do everything we can to make sure everything is bulletproof. When somebody starts questioning you on that, it’s like questioning your integrity, and that hurts because we do work so hard to preserve everything.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When an adoptive family feels a sense of entitlement, that’s hard for me because I look at these women as if I would look at my own birth mother. They need to be treated with respect and they need to be given that glory that they’re due for what they’re doing. These are real women, pregnant with real babies, and making an incredibly difficult decision. Sometimes women don’t know how they’re going to feel when the baby’s born. We want to believe that they’re going to want to continue with their adoption plan, but that’s not always the case.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I mean, when you’re dealing with something as…

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Humans and human emotion.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
These relationships are very intense when an adoptive family is not emotionally ready to do an adoption. They may have had failed infertility, they may have had a really bad experience trying to get pregnant on their own, and they look at adoption as a default option. They come in and they’re bitter and they’re jaded.

Ron Reigns:
They’re not in the right place yet.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They’re not in the right place yet. And even if they’ve been approved by another state’s entity to be Home Study certified, they’re coming into the program and having to let them know, “Hey, it doesn’t seem like you’re ready. Maybe you should go get some counseling and then come back and we’ll see because it’s not fair, you’re going to rob yourself and you’re going to rob the birth mother of this beautiful relationship that the two of you are going to have during her pregnancy and you’re going to miss out on being a part of your adoption journey if you’re bitter and jaded and distancing yourself from it.”

Ron Reigns:
Right. As you’ve always said in the past, for this journey you need to be present, you need to be in the moment every single moment.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
As hard as it is, you need to be in the moment.

Ron Reigns:
You can’t be thinking about your regrets, your hardships, you need to be with the adoption process.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You need to be in the moment.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s true. Sometimes there are legal risk situations where an adoptive family, the birth father service may not have been completed, there may be a reason as to why it can’t be wrapped up as quickly as we would like it to, and there is a risk that the baby may have to be returned to the birth mother. In those situations, some families are very hesitant, which I understand, in taking the babies, but I always explain it the same way. You’re never going to want to look back and realize the time that you missed. So if you go into it with a mindset of, “We hope this works out for the best, but it may not,” you’re never going to look back and think, “Oh, I wish I would have at least had those two weeks or those three weeks.” Whereas if you don’t take the baby, you’ll never be able to get that back.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So I think that as adoption workers, and working in the adoption field, you see a lot of the same things over and over again, but there’s always something new, there’s always something to learn, there’s always something to share, there’s always something that each and every client will bring that you will learn more from. You haven’t seen it all, you haven’t heard at all, and you won’t ever because everything’s changing in the world.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. There’s always going to be a surprise around the corner.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s always a surprise and I’m a believer in that.

Ron Reigns:
Never ceased to be surprised by this industry. It’s blown me away time after time after time.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Me too. And I can say that.

Ron Reigns:
In good and bad ways.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In good and bad ways. And that’s why I say that it will be the best job you’ve ever had and the worst job you’ve ever had.

Ron Reigns:
We have a pregnancy crisis hotline available 24-7 by phone or text at 623-695-4112 or you can call our toll free number 1 (800) 340-9665. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get you to a safe place, provide food and clothing, and started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or give you more information. You can check out our blogs on our website azpregnancyhelp.com. Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. If you enjoy this podcast, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And as always thanks to Grapes for letting us use their song I dunno as our theme song. Join us next time for Birth Mother Matters In Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns and we’ll see you then.