Ron Raines:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Raines, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the Executive Director, President and Co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna Kay Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I’ve worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Raines:
And I’m Ron Raines. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So today we’re going to be talking about abortion, breaking down abortion as a topic. I think it’s important that we look in our own backyard first. So, we are in the State of Arizona and why not start with Arizona?

Ron Raines:
Yeah, that’s what we’re most familiar with, the laws and such.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. We use it as a baseline. And obviously this aspect is just going to pertain to Arizona, but is applicable to other states as well in some areas. Obviously, every state is governed by their own laws in terms of the regulations that oversee abortion. So that being said, in Arizona, we allow abortions up to 24 weeks, which is the end of the second trimester of pregnancy.

Ron Raines:
24 weeks. Now you’ve talked about this before, but what does a baby in the 24th week in the womb look like? What are some of the characteristics of it? Because this just blows me away when you do this.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
This blows me away too, because it is almost unimaginable. So, at 24 weeks with medical intervention, most babies can survive. So, if a baby is born at 24 weeks, obviously they will have to go into the neonatal intensive care unit and they will require medical assistance until they reach probably 28 to 32 minimum weeks before they could even come out of that high level of care and then transition maybe into a lower level of care.

Ron Raines:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So at that point we’re talking about life.

Ron Raines:
Oh, absolutely. I think before that point, we’re still talking about life.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We are. Well, as you and I both agree, conception is really when we believe it’s life.

Ron Raines:
Even the hardcore pro-choice people could not deny that this is a life at this point because it is viable.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well, actually, they do.

Ron Raines:
Yeah, they still do.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They still do.

Ron Raines:
But I mean-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. So, at that point the baby-

Ron Raines:
They’re not being intellectually honest.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. At that point, the baby is able to smile. The baby is dreaming. They actually are dreaming as they sleep. They can determine this by the REM movements in the eyes. They are able to sense touch. They are able to feel pain. They can get the hiccups. You can feel the baby move. This is a fully formed baby.

Ron Raines:
About how big is it at that point? The size of a fist-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Bigger than the size of a fist.

Ron Raines:
Bigger than the size of a fist.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I would say probably between your middle finger and-

Ron Raines:
Maybe the middle of your forearm.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah.

Ron Raines:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
For a woman. Yes. And again, the baby’s head is probably the size of a plum, maybe a little bit bigger.

Ron Raines:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I mean, we’re talking about a human being.

Ron Raines:
Without question.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There are laws that protect the eggs of an eagle that is considered a criminal offense. And yet we’re not protecting our own little ones.

Ron Raines:
And by the way, in case you missed this episode way back in the beginning when we first started, the word fetus translated means little one. And I think we should emphasize that because it sounds too clinical when you say fetus, but when you realize that it does mean little one it-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I agree. I agree.

Ron Raines:
It’s powerful.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that when we use the term fetus, we distance ourselves from really what we’re talking about. We’re using more medical jargon-

Ron Raines:
Scientific terminology.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And it desensitizes us to what we’re really discussing. When you’re talking about a baby and you’re looking at a newborn or you’re looking at a 10-month-old, I think that it’s important to remember that at one time, this baby was six weeks in utero, eight weeks. I mean, we all came from that size and at that age.

Ron Raines:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And as my husband had stated in a previous episode as well, how many doctors have we aborted? How many scientists that could have cured cancer? What have we done as a society to our future?

Ron Raines:
And we’ll never know.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And we’ll never know what this has cost us. In looking further into the whole topic of abortion, I think… I’m speaking for both of us, Ron. When I say we understand it’s political, we understand that some of our listeners may or may not agree with our opinions or what we’re saying. But again, our goal is just to ask our listeners to open their hearts and their minds and understand that we are just trying to promote education and trying to help the public understand, because studies have shown us that a lot of people who are pro-abortion are not as educated as people that are against abortion. So, in other words, if you don’t have all the facts, how can you make a decision?

Ron Raines:
Certainly. Look at all sides of whatever the issue is, is always a good policy.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It is. And abortion is important to everybody because in some aspect or a lot of us know somebody who maybe has chosen adoption over abortion, or maybe they know somebody who’s had an abortion. I had a call today from a client that is coming in. And her words were literally, “I have already had one abortion and I can’t move past it. And I don’t want to do that again, no matter what. I can’t go through that. I can’t go through the aftermath or the guilt or how I feel about myself after doing that. And that’s why I’m choosing adoption this time because I can’t face myself in the mirror again.” I think that that’s really, really important because people are not realizing that this isn’t a one and done visit and then you go on to live your life.

Ron Raines:
Your quick fix.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No.

Ron Raines:
And everything is going to be peachy. And you know what, to some people, I think it is. And I don’t think they have that conscience about it, but-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think it catches up because in the women that I’ve spoken to, and I’ve spoken to women that have had multiple abortions, and at the time maybe they were using some type of drugs or maybe they had something in their life that was distracting them from what was really going on in their lives. But they described it almost as like a tidal wave when they look back and they realize, “Oh my gosh.”

Ron Raines:
It just floods in.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It does. It just floods in. “I didn’t know that I had this option of adoption. Nobody talks about it. I hadn’t heard of it. I didn’t know how to go about it. I didn’t know where to go.” And so, in talking about abortion, I’m hoping that we’re opening the doors on many levels. I hope that we can successfully provide accurate information in a manner that people will be receptive to hearing it. And I hope that we are able to really look at what’s going on in our backyard, in our country. Even aside from all of the political aspects of it, really what it boils down to is we’re talking about a baby.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
One of the questions that I get, not from clients that we work with, but from people who are just wanting to broach the abortion subject with me, and that is, “Isn’t it lucrative? Isn’t it financially lucrative for some entity?” The answer is yes.

Ron Raines:
You mean abortion?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Raines:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It is financially lucrative. If you have now medicinal… Am I saying that correct?

Ron Raines:
It sounds right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. So, the abortion pill is in the State of Arizona, approximately $560.

Ron Raines:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Which in my mind is expensive.

Ron Raines:
I think so. Especially when you’re talking about those who would do that, that are in this situation that they would do that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.

Ron Raines:
That’s a lot of money.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So the average and I pulled two different providers that are Arizona providers, up to 11 weeks and six days, the cost ranges from $560 to 620. At 15 weeks, the cost ranges from $740 to about $800, give or take. At 20 weeks, it ranges from $1,800 to $1,900. And then as we go up, it continues to increase and up until the 23 weeks and six day mark, it is-

Ron Raines:
The cutoff point in Arizona.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. It ranges from 2,400 to 2,500.

Ron Raines:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
For me, this isn’t a money issue that I have a problem with. It is 100% what people are choosing. This goes down to when they say, when you make a decision, is it life or death? This is life or death.

Ron Raines:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s no in the middle. So, when you hear that phrase being tossed around, because you’ve got to have heard it when people say, “Oh, come on. That’s not life or death. Come on. We’re not talking about something about, well, do you want a red car or a black car.”

Ron Raines:
Right. It’s not a life-or-death decision. It’s easy, but this one is a life or death.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
This is a life-or-death decision.

Ron Raines:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I can’t fathom how we can’t really provide significant education to women that are considering abortion. I know that there is some legislature where they have to come back two times before the procedure and they do some counseling and there has to be an ultrasound. There’s certain aspects where they’re starting to educate. But I think that if we were to mandate more education prior to a woman choosing abortion, I think that would drastically cut the rates of abortion as well.

Ron Raines:
And I think one of the bigger things that people need to be educated because I wasn’t educated about this, and you don’t hear this in the abortion debate as much as you would think you would, is the education of adoption and what an option that is. Again, when I was young and inexperienced, when my first wife, before we were married, she got pregnant, I thought the options essentially were abortion or have the baby and keep it and raise it. Of course, I had heard of adoption, but I never put those things together as a young man. I never thought, “Oh, I can adopt out a child.” That information needs to be so much more available to people, especially young and maybe not so wise and experienced people.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Less educated, yeah.

Ron Raines:
And I think when you see people on TV debating abortion, I would love so much more to hear adoption is a beautiful, beautiful option that you could take that road and maybe not suffer for it down the line, realizing what you’ve done.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The tidal wave.

Ron Raines:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And the other thing that adoption offers over abortion is the father’s right to be a part of it.

Ron Raines:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
With an abortion, you don’t need the father’s consent. As we talked about in previous podcasts, you never hear the words a father’s right to choose.

Ron Raines:
No.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But yet if you’re choosing adoption, the father has to be notified and he has the right to contest and he has the right to try to parent.

Ron Raines:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
He’s not given those same rights in-

Ron Raines:
When it comes to abortion.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When it comes to abortion.

Ron Raines:
Certainly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I think that negating the fact that it takes two people to make a baby. And it is as much his baby as it is her baby. Yes, she is the one who is carrying the child, but she couldn’t be carrying the child without his participation.

Ron Raines:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So I think that it’s not fair. Just seems like such a minimal word, but it’s not equitable. I don’t know that every man whose significant other has chosen abortion would have agreed with it. She wouldn’t even have to tell him that she was pregnant. She could just go and do it.

Ron Raines:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And he may never know.

Ron Raines:
Not to mention, I think that men in general are denigrated because a lot of the talking points are, “Oh, he made her carry this child to term. He didn’t have to carry the child.” So, they look at men as a negative thing instead of, “Wait, they’re a participant in this act, as well as the woman. They should be responsible as well as respected in these decisions.”

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
100% agree. If this gentleman is somebody that you are engaging in a sexual act with, and you have enough esteem for him to engage on that level, but you don’t have enough esteem for him to be able to make a decision regarding a child that the two of you created-

Ron Raines:
That is essentially half his genetically.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. Then that says a lot. I’m a big believer in personal accountability and responsibility. And I think that we need to hold both parties responsible. I do believe that abortion should not be on the table, but if it is, I do believe that both parties should have to be-

Ron Raines:
He should be notified as…

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And in agreement. One thing… Oh, actually, I found a couple of facts that really just blew my mind. And I wanted to share these because I wanted your take, Ron, on what you think, how it affects you in your head. In other words, when you hear these facts about abortion, what are your first thoughts?

Ron Raines:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Abortion medication. So that is the abortion pill. They call it medication. Abortion pill is now going to be available at California’s college health centers under a new law. A study that was done in 2018, published in the Journal of Adolescent Health, estimated that 322 to 519 students at California’s public universities seek medical abortions each month.

Ron Raines:
Each month. Those numbers blow me away, first of all. And second of all, I feel like a very pro-abortion, not even pro-choice, like you said earlier, a pro-abortion narrative is being pushed, especially on the young kids who are in college. Yeah, that’s my opinion.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The fact that it’s so readily available breaks my heart.

Ron Raines:
Do those same schools, not even just allow but require information about adoption? No.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No. I mean, at this point, this to me, I equate this with, so we’ve taken it up a notch and now they can get it at the college health centers. In five, is it going to be like a gumball machine? Are you going to put some money in it and turn the little lever and then it’s going to shoot out and-

Ron Raines:
Right. Throw $500 in the thing and pill comes out.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I mean, is this where we are as a society?

Ron Raines:
It’s terrifying.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It is. Only 37 states require parental involvement in a miner’s decision to have an abortion. No words. As a parent, I’m so grateful that I live in a state, not that any of my children would have an abortion, because I’ve told them from very, very young that’s off the table.

Ron Raines:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But should they attempt to behind my back or do something awful like that-

Ron Raines:
Oh God.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I’m very grateful that in Arizona, they would have to have permission.

Ron Raines:
Well, again, they have to be 18 years old to vote, to smoke a cigarette, allegedly vape, whatever. They have to be 21 to drink, but at 14, 15, they can just in some states, not Arizona, they can just go in without a parent to say-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In 13 states. Yes. When the CDC is doing their data and they are an exceedingly credible source, a lot of us look to the CDC for numbers and education information. It is unfathomable to me that states are not required to submit abortion data to the CDC. The majority do, but they’re not required to do so. So, we don’t really have as a society and as a nation accurate abortion numbers.

Ron Raines:
Right. We almost have a lot of good numbers. And then after that a best guess.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Raines:
Because, it is not a requirement. Interesting.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. Which I disagree with, especially because in the past, and in some areas, there is funding and federal funding. And I think that that needs to be accounted for. And I would really hope that that would change. The Planned Parenthood Annual Report covering the 2017, 2018 fiscal year was published last January. And the number of abortions performed by Planned Parenthood rose to 332,757 abortions, an increase of over 3%.

Ron Raines:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Adoption referrals dropped by over 25% to 2,831. The abortion provider, being Planned Parenthood makes one adoption referral for every 117 abortions.

Ron Raines:
You’ve said this statistic before.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right

Ron Raines:
And I think it bears repeating often because they are not putting out the information that is available to people. Every 117 times they go, “Oh yeah, you could place this child in a loving home and let it essentially live.” Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. So that’s really hard for me to process because for a long, long, long time Planned Parenthood has always been looked to as a resource. And I think it’s important again, to understand that these big entities, these big corporations like Planned Parenthood have funding to be able to do this mass advertising where adoption agencies don’t have that same level of funding.

Ron Raines:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We do the best we can on getting information out, but we don’t have the resources that other entities have.

Ron Raines:
Of this national organization.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. For instance, the company MAC Makeup just endorsed Planned Parenthood this year and has made a huge donation. MAC Makeup is huge. That’s a huge, huge, huge corporation. And so, they’re assisting in the funding of Planned Parenthood. And so, within that funding that allows them to do advertising and marketing and so forth. And again, nonprofit agencies just can’t compete-

Ron Raines:
Of course not.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… with that level of marketing. We do the best we can to get the word out on what options are. But again, it really depends on who’s listening.

Ron Raines:
We have a pregnancy crisis hotline available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112. Or you can call our toll-free number (1800) 340-9665. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get you to a safe place, provide food and clothing and started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or give you more information. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Raines. If you enjoyed this podcast, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And as always, thanks to Grapes for letting us use their song, I Dunno as our theme song. Join us next time for Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Raines, and we’ll see you then.