Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
It was best for your kid and for yourself. Because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of. But then…

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m the Executive Director, President, and Co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother. Raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns, I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There is nothing in the world like a birth mother’s heart.

Ron Reigns:
That’s true. I agree.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You know, adoption choices are difficult. There’s no ifs, ands, or buts about that. It’s incredibly difficult to even conceptualize carrying a baby for nine months and placing that baby for adoption. And it’s the right thing to do, and it’s hard and it’s going to hurt and it’s going to be painful. But at the end to know you did the right thing is the most beautiful thing in the world. So, I think in looking at the women that we work with that make this gallant choice, I think is so underrated by society. And the perception that I feel that should be given is a heroic steps. You’re truly one of those Marvel characters by what you’re doing.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I do feel that way partly because of my own birth mother and partly because I watch these women and I watch them through their journey and the choices that they’re making. And I can’t imagine how hard this must be for them, but yet they love their child so much that they’re giving their child the precious gift of life. And so this podcast, I really want to discuss really what these women are like. I mean, they have dreams and aspirations and secrets and stories, and they’re individual people. They’re not numbers, they’re not a stereotyped group, they’re brave women. And they’re sacrificing their own life for another child and for a family to have that child.

Ron Reigns:
And they should be celebrated.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
At all costs. I really believe so. These women are making this choice when their own wants and needs aren’t currently being met. They’re choosing adoption when they may not even have a roof over their own head and they don’t have a door to close when they want to be alone. They don’t have a roof over their head, for some of them, when it’s raining out. So, when I watch these women come into our agency and make this choice, it’s just so incredible to me that they’re willing to give so much and yet they themselves have so little. And the scale of equity is so not in their favor. And so that’s why I think as an agency, I think that all adopts agencies should really understand the importance of investing in these women and helping them afterwards rebuild their own lives.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And help them to make choices that won’t result in the same thing occurring again, because repeat birth moms is a very common thing. To have a baby and place the baby for adoption, and then to come back around and do it again. And it’s painful the first time, it’s not going to be any less painful the second. I think that by understanding these women on a greater level and society changing their view of what adoption really is and have a greater understanding, I think we can collectively do more. They say it takes a tribe or a village-

Ron Reigns:
To raise a child. Yeah, right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… To raise a child. Well, where’s our tribe? Again you and I have talked about over and over again, when you see a homeless woman on the side of the street that’s somebody’s mother, that somebody’s sister, somebody’s friend, somebody’s daughter.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
She got there maybe because she has a mental illness and one thing led to another, or maybe she made a bad choice one night and one thing led to another and that led to another bad choice. And I don’t think people are the choices that they make.

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that also that doesn’t define who they are. I’m not saying that becoming homeless is a victim of your own circumstance, I’m not saying it’s not, but I’m saying that that doesn’t mean that that’s who they are.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s what they’re experiencing at that moment, but that doesn’t negate every amazing thing that she’s done in her life or every amazing thing that she’ll do in the future. That just means that right now that-

Ron Reigns:
She’s in a bad spot.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… She’s in a bad spot. And I know that I feel better just as a human when I can help somebody else. It makes me internally feel better and I’m sure you feel the same.

Ron Reigns:
I think we are all wired that way, some more so than others, but that it’s more rewarding to give, not a gift, but help than it is to receive.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I agree. I prefer to give rather than receive as well. And I think that as more women open up who are making adoption plans for their baby and sharing their experiences and sharing their life stories, I think that people will begin to understand that these are individuals. That these are, again, not a bunch of people that you can classify as a group together, they all have different dreams and aspirations and they’re trying to make a difference. They have so little but they’re willing to give so much. And that is what to me is incredible.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Again, when a birth mother comes into our agency, we’ve talked about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, which just basically substantiates that in order for somebody to be able to function in society and be able to be a productive member of society, they have to have their basic needs met. A roof over their head, food in their stomach, clothing, and then up to feeling safe and secure and loved.

Ron Reigns:
Right. It’s a pyramid and it starts at the bottom of the pyramid with physiological needs, then safety, and then above that love and belonging, then esteem, and then self-actualization.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
So, you got to start at that baseline of, okay, take care of the physiological needs the roof over your head, the clothes on your body, the food that you’re eating.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And the door that you can lock.

Ron Reigns:
And the door that you can lock.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The other thing too, is a lot of these women when they come to us have not had prenatal care. And so that’s one of the things that we as an agency make sure that we do as quickly as possible is get them in to see a doctor not only to check on the baby, but to make sure that they’re okay.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Healthy mommy healthy baby is. And we want mommy to be just as healthy as baby. And then we’ve talked about the analogy of the airplane and oxygen mask. You can’t help somebody put on an oxygen mask if you’re not wearing one yourself.

Ron Reigns:
Right. If you’ve already passed out. Exactly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. You’re no good.

Ron Reigns:
And it makes complete sense.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. We also understand as an agency, as a whole, that there is grief. And grief is an aspect of adoption that a lot of the adoption community doesn’t like to discuss. It’s not all unicorns and rainbows, it’s not. The birth mother is grieving for the loss of parenting her child. The adoptive family may at some point have come to you after grieving over fertility issues or the inability to conceive their own child. At some point, there may be a time in the adoptee’s life where they’re grieving the loss of a birth mother or birth father and not have had that biological connection on a daily basis, that could happen as well. So, there is grief that can be spread across the triad. And it’s something that is, in my opinion, very important. I think that the biggest misconception and the most underrated of all of this is really the grief that a birth mother can experience. Not everybody experiences grief the same way-

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… Or the same levels. I know that some people when they lose a loved one, you may have the same relationship as your sister but when you lose, let’s say when you lost a parent, you may have handled it differently than she handled it or vice versa.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I think grief is like one of those things like surfing. It’s like riding the waves out and you just have to acknowledge it and accept it and know that you’re going to have good days and bad days.

Ron Reigns:
This is part of the rollercoaster that we’ve talked about so many times.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So many times. Because that’s what adoption it is and that’s never going to change.

Ron Reigns:
Now, do you think to some degree that grief in our lives makes the triumphs in our lives. And like the success, when an adoption goes through, when that child is being raised by a family who can do it, do you think that makes that sweeter?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I do.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Let me tell you why. There was a movie Parenthood, did you ever see it with Steve Martin?

Ron Reigns:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And the grandmother is talking about the rollercoaster, do you remember that?

Ron Reigns:
Oh, yeah. That’s right. I do.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And she said that sometimes people like to go on the ride and it’s just straight across and that’s boring. And she likes the rides that go up and down and up and down and that’s fun for her.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I do think that in order to have highs you have to have lows. I think that when a birth mother is struggling and is grieving, I think that she will still have highs. I think seeing pictures of her beautiful baby with the adoptive family will be a high. I think knowing that she gave somebody the best gift that you could give anybody will give her that as well. I think that it is so incredible. I’ve seen where there was some indecision on a birth mother’s part at the end and she was really struggling about placing her baby for adoption, and the adoptive family there was this… Actually, I’ll go into a story.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There was a time where the birth mother was really struggling. And she had had the baby and she was in her room and adopted family just sat outside and waited. And they waited for 12 hours.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The birth mother had said, “I don’t want you to leave the hospital because I don’t know yet really what I want to do, but I just want some alone time.” And they said, “No problem.” And we wanted to make sure that the adoptive family wasn’t pressuring or anything and they weren’t. They were just sitting outside the door, and they sat and they sat and they sat and they weren’t knocking on the door and asking her if she was…

Ron Reigns:
You okay? Is this still going to happen?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. Right, yeah. They weren’t asking her if she was still going to go through with it, they weren’t asking her if they could do anything to help change her mind or reassure her, they just sat.

Ron Reigns:
And let her have her time.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And let her process it. We were coming by and checking on them about every hour, every two hours. They were just upbeat, they weren’t out there crying and arguing with the nurses and they were just sitting there, they had faith in her. And when she had made her decision, she called them in there and told them that she knew she had made the right choice when she chose them and when she chose adoption and handed them the baby. It was one of those moments where it’s like, you did the right thing by not being anything other than what she wanted you or needed you to be at that moment. And I was so grateful that it went through and the birth mother made the right choice and the adoptive family and made the right choice. Because they saw her heart and they knew that this was tough, this was a Mount Everest climb. This was hard.

Ron Reigns:
And she needed this.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And she needed it. And they gave it to her, the adoption was beautiful. To this day they’re very close. They still have a very open adoption and they’re close. And I love stories like that.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And that is what, even as an adoption professional, that is what gets us through the harder moments, is remembering families like that and getting to see them. It’s amazing. So, the heart of a birth mother is like no other. It’s loving another human enough to put her own wants and needs aside to provide a life for her child. The huge heart that she has is selflessly giving the gift of life to another woman, man, or family who may or may not be able to conceive their own child. A birth mother will always and forever remain a mother to the child she places for adoption. The love she has for her child never dies or is replaced it just continues to grow. I think that at the end of the day, human beings are good natured.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I hope so.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I believe they are. And the glass is always going to be half-full. Whether adoption has taken a turn for you in the past, whether you’ve had a bad experience with adoption and maybe a disruption or a failed placement, if you think back and remember that we’re all human beings and life is hard and adoption isn’t always easy. And to give people grace and understanding when the moments are the hardest, I think nothing bad can come from that. So, in other words, if you’re struggling and you have had a bad adoption experience in the past, and you’re considering trying again, or you’ve had a failed adoption and you feel bitter and angry that it didn’t work out, give that birth mother grace. Let those feelings go if you can and try to believe that in her heart, she made the choice that was right for her and believe that the best is still yet to come.

Desiree:
My name is Desiree, I am 26 years old. When I first found out I was pregnant, it was unbelievable. I had just had my son last year, Alonzo, and it was a rough pregnancy as it was. And I came here first and my first instinct was adoption. And two weeks later, I removed myself from the program because I was convinced by others to keep my unborn child and then reality started sinking in even more. I started getting sicker and the father of the baby decided not to be a part and I was absolutely left alone. I left the adoption agency for about two, three weeks, and then I called them back to keep going forward with this adoption. This is not a joke.

Desiree:
You come and you meet these people that are willing to not only help you in your time where you’re at your lowest, but they’re there to help you better the life for your child. You are a blessing to these adoptive parents more than you will ever know. In reality, you are giving your child to these people who they have open arms and open heart for your kid. In the end, this whole experience is going to change you, but they have people who are going to help you through this so you’re not alone.

Robin:
My name is Robin and I placed my daughter almost three years ago. Placing my daughter for adoption was one of the hardest, but best decisions I made in my life. I wanted to have her, but I knew it wasn’t in my best interest at the time I’m Native American, placing our kids for adoption isn’t something we do. I chose to place my baby outside of the tribe because I wanted her to have a better life. As much as you want to think that we have our little reservations in our own little world, it’s a struggle of its own that I don’t wish on kids to have to grow up in.

Robin:
I see pictures of her and she has everything at her fingertips that I wish I could have given her. And I did give it to her in a way, because I gave her to her new family. There’s open conversations there still and I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. I feel I’m filled in with them, I see her milestones and I can get a grasp of how she is with people the way they talk about her. And they talk about her like she is this great being and she is because that’s their gift. And it’s amazing to see that they accepted their gift so proudly. Thankful for Building Arizona Families, I don’t know where I’d be without them. Three years later, they’re still in my life.

Ron Reigns:
We have a pregnancy crisis hotline available 24/7 by phone or text at 623-695-4112, or you can call our toll-free number 1-800-340-9665. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get you to a safe place, provide food and clothing and started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or give you more information. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. If you enjoy this podcast rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And as always thanks to Grapes for letting us use their song I Don’t know as our theme song. Join us next time for Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns and we’ll see you then.