Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a Bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a Master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney, and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Let’s talk about adoption positive language.

Ron Reigns:
Adoption positive language.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
… As opposed to adoption negative language.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
We always want to be positive. The glass is always half-full. And when you’re talking about adoption, when you’re talking to somebody who is a part of the adoption triad, when you’re broaching the adoption subject as a whole, using adoption positive language does a couple of things. One, it inspires other people around you to pick up and use the same language, which then changes the culture of adoption. It starts to change the outlook and perspective and stereotypes, and that’s the goal.

Ron Reigns:
Before this podcast, you and I were talking candidly off the mic, and-

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
We never do that Ron.

Ron Reigns:
No, never. And basically, I’d said that it’s hard to let go of things in language, in particular that you’ve heard all your life. I can’t think of an example other than the one in adoption, which is, she gave up her baby for adoption.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
I can think of another one. The politically correct terms that have changed over special needs.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, certainly.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Or racist-

Ron Reigns:
There are certain things that-

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Racist special needs.

Ron Reigns:
Yes.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Everything that when it changes, you want to make sure that you don’t offend anybody, that you don’t hurt anybody’s feelings. And so, you always try to make sure that you used the most correct, most friendly usage of the word.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Respectful. However, even those, like some of those words, it was easy to drop because it’s like, wow you know that’s wrong. But the one phrase in particular that was hard to drop because it’s like, no, it’s not correct first of all, the give up a baby for adoption, that was hard to change-

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
That’s the most common mistake that I hear people making.

Ron Reigns:
But you’re right. I mean, those other words we can let go of those. And this is another phrase that we should let go of.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Correct, because nobody is giving up anything.

Ron Reigns:
Right. If anything, they’re given an opportunity.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Correct, the reverse. And when a baby is placed for adoption, that offers a very different connotation than if a woman gives up a baby for adoption, because she’s not giving anything, she’s still a mother. She’s not parenting, but she’s still a mother.

Ron Reigns:
She’ll always be your mother.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Correct. By nature of giving birth, she will forever be a mother. And by making the beautiful choice of adoption, she will solidify her status and role as a mother. And so I think that that’s a really good analogy of giving up a baby because nobody gives up a baby. But yet, that is what has been said for so many decades.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
And to even today, I have women that come in that are pregnant and wanting to make an adoption plan, and they’re using that terminology and we still correct them

Ron Reigns:
Because that’s what they have heard.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Correct. And with that, giving up a baby, it carries a very negative connotation. And when their friends and family may not be on board with their adoption plan, if they’re using the terminology, “I’m giving up a baby”, or, “You’re going to give up my grandson”, that’s very different conjecture than “I’m placing a baby for adoption. I’m placing my baby with this adoptive family.” Very different.

Ron Reigns:
And especially nowadays where the adoptions are more open than they ever have been in the past, you’re not giving up that baby-

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
That’s correct.

Ron Reigns:
… You’re still a part of that baby’s life for at least 18 years-

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
That’s correct.

Ron Reigns:
… Probably the rest of your life.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
And so when we look at these terms that we’re going to go walk through, I think it’s really important to understand that the goal is not only for people in the adoption community and members of the triad to use these terms, but society as a whole. Words are contagious. If you start using this terminology, it’ll catch on. And again, our goal is to change society’s view to a more positive approach and educate them on adoption. It’s funny. Teenagers come up with these catchphrases. And I mean, they spread like wildfire and some of them, I used to think I was cool and hip with my teenagers. Now, I’m-

Ron Reigns:
You’ve just given up.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
I’ve given up.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, me too.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
I can’t stay in the cool realm because I can’t keep up with it. I mean, some of the terms are just… What was the latest one that my daughter was saying? “Oh, that’s sweet. Oh that’s sour”, or something. Or was it, “It’s sweet and…” What was the other one? Yeah.

Ron Reigns:
Salty?

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Salty, I’ve heard, but I don’t really-

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Is it sweet?

Ron Reigns:
It’s obviously the opposite of sweet.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Something like that.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Yeah. I guess we’re getting old Ron.

Ron Reigns:
Salty.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
All right. So, the term in parentheticals, birth mother has not always been a part of the language around adoption. Its use became common in the 50s and 60s with the author and mother who was Pearl S. Buck and formalized by Marietta Spencer, who was a social worker at the Children’s Home Society of Minnesota in 1979. So, that’s a relatively new term, birth mother. Now, some agencies say that she’s not technically a birth mother until she has had the baby and place the baby for adoption, and she’s really an expectant mother. And I think in my humble opinion, that either one is just fine to use. I think a birth mother is fine. I think expectant mothers fine.

Ron Reigns:
Expectant mother is fine as well.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
I think in the adoption community, birth mother is way more commonly used than expectant mother, but I’ve heard both. And I don’t think either of them are offensive or confusing.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I wouldn’t see why they would be.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
So, positive adoption language is what is arguably the preferred language of adoption agencies and adopted families.

Ron Reigns:
And it’s just language that’s respectful to all involved.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Right, because words just don’t convey just facts, they also evoke feelings. And when we’re using a word to discuss a particular race, those can evoke a lot of feelings and people can become very passionate. I think as a society, we should be as passionate about adoption and adoption language than we should-

Ron Reigns:
You’re absolutely right.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
… Any other entity or aspect or a group of people.

Ron Reigns:
It’s part of the person’s identity.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Correct. So, adoption language would be important again to educate others, also to protect the dignity of the child and the family involved. And that is where you were using the phrase, give the child up for adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Or given away.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
That would be hard for that child to hear.

Ron Reigns:
Can you imagine?

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
That would be very hurtful. And as an adoptee, that would be really hard. And that would also unintentionally shame the child. Like what did they do wrong to be given away?

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. Why did they have to give me away? What-

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
What’s wrong with me? And so, by using adoption positive language, we cannot put those thoughts or feelings onto somebody else. And I think that’s important. I think that’s really important.

Ron Reigns:
Now, how about real parents?

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Another one that’s really offensive.

Ron Reigns:
It can be, if you think about it from the other side, like the person that’s receiving that, especially somebody like me, who wasn’t adopted. If somebody asks you about your quote unquote real parents, you got to realize that’s hurtful.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Because what makes a parent?

Ron Reigns:
Right. Is it the fact of giving birth or the fact of raising a child, or how about both?

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
I was going to say both. I would agree that it’s both. And I think that when you do say, “Real mother, real father, real family”, that really negates-

Ron Reigns:
What both sides are doing.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
What both sides are doing. I wouldn’t even say it’s just one side. I would say it’s both. And I think constantly saying, “This is my adoptive parent or my…”, rather than just saying, “This is my adopted mom”, rather than just saying, “Mom”.

Ron Reigns:
“This is mom.”

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Now I will say that adoptees when they’re discussing both of their moms to somebody else will use, “This is my adoptive mom. This is my biological mom”, when they’re… Because otherwise it can get confusing.

Ron Reigns:
You need to differentiate who you’re talking with.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
But on a regular day-to-day basis, I think putting that in front of that word, whether it’s adoptive or biological, is almost like it’s not an entirety.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah. It definitely depends on the context of the conversation, but you’re absolutely right. For all intents and purposes, it’s mom and mom and dad and dad. Yeah.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
And using terms when a birth mother decides not to place her child for adoption saying, “She’s going to parent her child”, is the correct and most appropriate way to say it. Not that she kept her baby, she decided to parent her baby.

Ron Reigns:
Again, it’s just respectful.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
It is respectful and honorable. Avoiding terms like abandoned, surrendered, released, relinquished, gave up for, or put up for adoption are really almost derogatory in nature. And again, it is shaming the child and the birth parents by using those terms. And that’s not at all what adoption is about. Adoption is about the beauty of selflessness. When there are questions, maybe if you’re in the grocery store, I’ve talked about it before, where people will come up and just start saying things, and-

Ron Reigns:
And usually without thinking.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
I hope they’re not thinking, right. If those were set after a lot of forethought, then I’d be even more concerned.

Ron Reigns:
Just horrible people.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Right. Who were his real parents? And that is implying that you’re not really a parent, which is not the case.

Ron Reigns:
No.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Or aren’t you wonderful to adopt this child? Well, this child wasn’t a charity case and you’re not… This child is a blessing to you as much as you are a blessing to this child.

Ron Reigns:
And actually I think I’m pretty wonderful with or without the adoption.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
You are Ron. You are. How could his real mother giveaway an adorable baby? I think it would be intrusive and offensive to the degree of walking up to somebody you don’t know and saying, “Why are you wearing that ugly shirt?” And you’re like-

Ron Reigns:
Even more so, because it’s not just about your clothing, it’s about-

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Your child.

Ron Reigns:
… Who you are and your child? Certainly.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Right. So, I think that we really need to watch what we say when we say it, and to whom we say it. Questions that seem innocent, like “Why was she given up for adoption?” Or, “It’s just like having one of your own, isn’t it?”, are actually really hurtful. And as an adoptee, I will tell you, these are hurtful. And there are things that linger in your mind afterwards and make you think, and your mind goes places that your mind wouldn’t have gone necessarily had those statements not have been made-

Ron Reigns:
Had that person not said that thing.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
I see comments made even more often when the child was obviously adopted. So, if you have-

Ron Reigns:
A different race.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
Right. And what I hope people take away from this particular podcast is this: think before you talk, and that’s me speaking in tongues because I am notorious for not always thinking before I talk.

Ron Reigns:
We all make mistakes.

Kelly Rourke Scarry:
We do. But strive to aim higher and remember the consequences of words, and that words do leave lasting impressions. And when you are conscientious of what you’re doing, and you’re thinking about adoption, and you’re talking about adoption, use adoption positive language so that we can make this language contagious.

Ron Reigns:
This weekend, I saw a beautiful day in the neighborhood and it really brought my mind back to when Kelly and I recorded this episode of Birth Mother Matters In Adoption. While the film really had nothing to do with adoption per se, it did have a lot to do with kindness and how we treat each other. Fred Rogers, or as many of us know him Mr. Rogers, seems to have lived his life truly caring about others, especially children and their feelings. Although I’m a huge believer in free speech and the ability to say essentially anything we want to, I also believe that comes with a tremendous responsibility to ourselves and others. Just because you can say something doesn’t mean that you should, and it takes great strength and maturity to be able to control your tongue.

Ron Reigns:
As we talked about in this podcast, it’s not necessarily that people are being malicious when they say hurtful things to others, mostly I would say that they just lack the understanding of how these words can affect somebody who is in a different situation than we are. I want to challenge all of our listeners to take a little time before we say something and try to think about how that would make us feel if we were in their shoes. I think it would do all of us as individuals and society as a whole, a lot of good to treat each other with a little more kindness, like Mr. Rogers treated people.

Ron Reigns:
We have a pregnancy crisis hotline available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112, or you can call our toll free number 1-800-340-9665. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get you to a safe place, provide food and clothing, and started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or give you more information. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters In Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. If you enjoy this podcast, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts and as always, thanks to Grapes for letting us use their song, I Don’t Know as our theme song. Join us next time for Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scary. I’m Ron Reigns and we’ll see you then.