Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because, if you can’t take care of yourself you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter will be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development, and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother. Raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m, Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the co-host of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When adoptive families come to the hospital and it’s that time, that pinnacle in every adoption journey for the adoptive family-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… when they arrive at the hospital and their birth mother is going into labor or maybe she’s already had the baby, and you get to hold that precious baby for the first time. So many emotions flood your head. And this I’m not speaking of personally, I’m speaking professionally because I have witnessed it time and time again.

Ron Reigns:
Thousands of times, certainly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. And it is the most beautiful sight I’ve ever seen. I will say that I have seen a wide range of emotions.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There is so much joy and happiness, but sometimes there is fear as well. Sometimes there is almost some confusion because everything has come to a head. And so, when you have this dream and this fantasy of being a mother and you’ve dreamed about it your entire life, and maybe you’ve struggled with fertility or you have found out that you just cannot have children. And you make the adoption decision and you start with your home study, and you find your agency, and then you’re chosen by a birth mother. And then you have walked her pregnancy with her.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And you’ve now reached the pinnacle, you’re at the top of Mount Everest.

Ron Reigns:
This is the culmination of everything, certainly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Of everything.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That moment… I don’t think anybody can totally prepare themselves for. Let me give you an analogy.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When you were in high school did you go to prom?

Ron Reigns:
I did.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay. When you were younger… Now, for guys it’s different than girls.

Ron Reigns:
It is.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But you always hear about prom.

Ron Reigns:
How romantic it is.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Oh, how amazing it is.

Ron Reigns:
How it’s this beautiful thing.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s going to be the night of your life.

Ron Reigns:
And it never lives up to the expectation.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Ever, ever, ever, ever. And it’s not that seeing your newborn won’t live up to the expectation, but it’s not always what you anticipate.

Ron Reigns:
Right, you have a vision in your head and nothing is going to be exactly like that vision. I mean, it’s still beautiful and it’s still wonderful.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s going to be an amazing beautiful experience.

Ron Reigns:
Right. But it’s like, oh, I thought you’d be standing over there and this would be here and the clouds would open up somehow in the hospital.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I didn’t know… Right, absolutely.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I didn’t know the baby was going to cry the first time I held the baby.

Ron Reigns:
But why would it cry?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay, I gotcha.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s also fear if the birth mother has not signed her final adoption consents.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And you also may be very stressed. Maybe you don’t have a lot of experience being around newborns. Maybe you thought all your maternal instincts would kick in and you would just-

Ron Reigns:
Be supermom or superdad.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… be supermom. Right.

Ron Reigns:
And that’s not what’s happening. Or you don’t know if that’s what… You don’t even know, you’re scared.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. It’s almost as if time freezes for a couple moments.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You have a blur of these mixed emotions. I’ve had families tell me everything from they were sad because as they were looking at this beautiful baby, it’s not biologically theirs-

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… and they have a moment of grief. I’ve had families tell me that they never thought that they would be scared of a newborn. The responsibility was immediately overwhelming. I’ve had families tell me that they became almost depressed for a couple moments because their entire life just changed. Life as they knew it was now over.

Ron Reigns:
Right, this is now a new segment.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s no going back.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so, these emotions, people don’t talk about. Everybody talks about their beautiful moment. “They handed me the baby, we bonded instantly. I knew she was supposed to be mine the minute I saw her-“

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
“… and this is this glorious moment.” And that’s what we want it to be and we do everything as an adoption agency and as adoption professionals to try to make it that moment.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And preparing adoptive families for what this really is, and taking all of the Hollywood out of it and all of the Hallmark movies, and explaining that you may have to work at bonding with your newborn. You may have to work at finding your own pattern as a mother, as a father. You may have to learn and ask questions, and admit that you don’t know everything.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And that you’re not bonding instantly. One of the reasons that adoption agencies do post-placement reports after the baby’s born is not to judge, it’s to help. It’s to provide resources. It’s to talk to you and say, hey, if you need counseling or maybe try kangarooing more with the baby and those kinds of things. So skin-on-skin contact is-

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… kangarooing.

Ron Reigns:
I didn’t know what that was.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s where you put the baby on your chest-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… skin-to-skin-

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… so that it helps form a bond between you and the baby.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So there’s lots of things that adoption professionals can do to kind of help ease you into that-

Ron Reigns:
That transition.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… transition.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Now, when you had your biological son-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… your very first child, did you bond instantly?

Ron Reigns:
Probably not bond. Obviously I thought, wow, this is a beautiful baby. But I think I was. I felt that whole overwhelmed feeling of, am I up to this task? Can I do this? For so long you see adults as a kid and you think, they’ve got it all together. They know what they’re talking about. Then when you become an adult and you start talking to your peers who are also adults, you realize, no, they’re all idiots to some degree or another. They’re not the people that have everything together. Nobody has everything together. But I was terrified. I thought, how can I raise a son, I’m a child myself? And well, somehow I got lucky and he raised himself or something.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No, you did a great job. But, as a biological mother-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… I will tell you that when you give birth and you have the baby, and they place the baby in your arms, nature does have a way. And this is medically proven that hormones increase to make you instantly protect the young.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And you have this instinct. That doesn’t mean that you’re going to know how to change a diaper immediately or anything like that.

Ron Reigns:
Right, you need to learn still. Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. But as a father, that’s why I was asking because, the child didn’t come out of you and you-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… and you didn’t have those hormones.

Ron Reigns:
And there wasn’t that hormone rush.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. Correct.

Ron Reigns:
No, it was difficult and I would say for quit a period I felt like, am I doing anything right? Am I changing a diaper right or am I holding him right, am I supporting his neck the way I should and all those things? And I thought, what if somebody… I mean, I always through my whole life, have looked at things like, somebody is going to see this and realize I’m faking it. You know what I mean?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly what you mean.

Ron Reigns:
So yeah, I was not a confident father, especially in the beginning.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Was it the newborn phase that made you nervous?

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, probably because now there’s a life that’s somewhat dependent on me-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
100% dependent on you.

Ron Reigns:
I mean, I had a wife at the time, so I’ll say 50%. But, it was scary. Yeah. I don’t know how he survived, but he did. So, cool.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
He survived because you did a good job.

Ron Reigns:
Well, at the beginning, I’m telling you, I was scared and iffy like any new parent probably is. But I thought I was the only one that didn’t know what the hell they were doing.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No, you were just like everybody else. I will tell you a story of a family we had as an agency. There was a mother that had delivered and the family couldn’t get out in time before the baby was discharged. So, I had the baby with me when the adoptive family came to the state of Arizona-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… to come and pick up their child. And when they came, they arrived in the middle of the night and were just so excited to see their baby that we couldn’t ask them to wait. I mean, they were just over the moon.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And they had done all of the classes and learned how to change diapers, how to feed and burp and hold, and put a baby in a car seat, and all those things. And the hospital also teaches you those things-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… even as an adoptive parent when you’re there. They do a quick baby care class and we always recommend they take them prior as well.

Ron Reigns:
Now is this a new thing?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You don’t remember the baby care class?

Ron Reigns:
I don’t remember a baby care class whatsoever.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Well, it’s not a class in a traditional sense. They come in and they just go over things with you, a nurse.

Ron Reigns:
Oh, maybe. Okay, just kind of okay, this-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And sometimes they have you watch a video.

Ron Reigns:
No, I did not watch a video.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Okay.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. Go ahead. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No, no, you’re fine. And again, this is not the formal class, this is a real brief. But, so we hand the baby over and the adoptive mother is just over the moon. I had let her know I had just finished feeding the baby, so if she wanted to go ahead and burp the baby. That’s the transition that we were at.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And her eyes just went blank and she had this deer in a headlights look. She’s like, “I don’t know how to burp a baby.” And I said, “Yeah, of course you do, you took the class.” And she just had this fear like I don’t. So, I took the baby from her and I showed her how to burp the baby and then I let her finish. And she did just fine.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And then I had to help them change the baby. Because again, it was that moment of when you walk into the test and you just go blank.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I knew that everything would come right back. And-

Ron Reigns:
Once she started-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
… getting hands-on with it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Once she started believing in herself-

Ron Reigns:
That too.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… and trusting that she knew what to do.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And to know that she was going to do just fine. She did, I check on them first thing in the morning and then throughout the next couple of days.

Ron Reigns:
She was fine.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
She was doing great.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Baby was doing great. And it’s just, you have to believe in yourself. This is something that people can do.

Ron Reigns:
And people have done for millions of years. That’s another thing that you just kind of brought back to me. Okay, so say you got these classes, which are just kind of little instructional, here’s how you burp a baby, blah, blah, blah. But not only that, but you get say your mother-in-law saying, okay, you need to do this. And then your mother saying, okay, and you also need to… And you’re inundated with all of this information. And that was another fear of mine, I’m never going to remember half of this much less all of it and I’m going to do something and break this thing. And so, that was another part of it is, so much information coming from so many different-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So information overload?

Ron Reigns:
… directions. Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that’s a really good point, because I do think that especially when you’re a first-time parent you are inundated with information-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… because everybody wants to help.

Ron Reigns:
Right

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But then when you’re around that person you want to show them that you’re taking their advice-

Ron Reigns:
So you’re doing what they said-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… even though it’s contradictory to what somebody else said and-

Ron Reigns:
Heaven forbid the two are in the same room at the same time.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. And that can be… And people can be a little judgmental.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I mean, I was always a binky fan. People call them pacifiers, we always called them binkies.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And some people are very anti binkies. Some people are very anti thumb sucking and it’s one of those things that you just kind of have to go with what you believe in.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I nursed three of my kids, well, two of my kids until they were two and a half.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And then one of my children until she was 15 months. And then not as long on the first one. And so, you have to do what’s right for you.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, I’m a huge proponent of parent your child as you feel is best for you and your child. And I will tell you, when I delivered my fourth, my son, my fourth child I was nursing him and at that point I had it down. When the lactation specialist came in, the nurses came in and they learned that it was my fourth child, they didn’t even say anything. They just spun around-

Ron Reigns:
Have a nice day.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… and headed right out.

Ron Reigns:
It was nice meeting you.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. It wasn’t even checking the box.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And they didn’t even ask. I mean, they didn’t. Had I had questions, which I didn’t, I would have felt really dumb at that point because-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… they’d already expected me to know so much. And I think that is what adoptive parents need to make sure that they don’t feel is, that people assume they know something.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And they’re not dumb or nothing’s wrong with them asking. Nobody’s going to judge them or think they shouldn’t be parents. It’s okay.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Every child’s different. My last child was a boy where I’d had three biological girls prior. And so-

Ron Reigns:
So there’s a lot of differences just I that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There was. Yes. A lot of differences. Especially in diaper changing.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I mean, that was completely different.

Ron Reigns:
Because you got circumcision going on-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
All that kind of stuff.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And they pee really differently and you learn that real quick.

Ron Reigns:
That’s for sure.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And he got me once, so I learned real quick.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And it was very different.

Ron Reigns:
Only once, that’s impressive. Good.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. So, as you’re going through your time at the hospital and those first moments with the baby that lead on to more time with the baby and then discharge, and you find yourself grieving, grieving for the loss of your old life. Grieving for the fact that this wasn’t you who biologically had the baby.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
This wasn’t you who carried the baby in your stomach and you never felt the baby kick inside of you. Those are normal grief reactions. It’s okay to feel those. But accept it as grief and one of the ways to get through grief is to acknowledge that you’re grieving, even if it’s to your spouse, to somebody that you trust and want to talk to or a counselor, and just process that.

Ron Reigns:
Sometimes it helps just to get it out even if-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It does.

Ron Reigns:
… there’s no advice coming after it. It’s just, okay, I had to release that.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. And it’s okay to reassure yourself that the baby’s doing fine as you’re learning how to communicate with your newborn and whether that’s the way you’re holding your child or feeding your child, looking in your child’s eyes.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s what your child needs and that’s bonding. And that’s forming an attachment with your child. If you are struggling with those things, that’s where you need to reach out for help. You want to make sure that your child’s, not only are the basic needs being met, but that you are starting to form a connection.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
If you’re not, that’s where professionals can help you. That doesn’t mean that you weren’t meant to be this child’s mother-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… or that-

Ron Reigns:
Or you’re doing something wrong.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. It’s just it’s something that’s happening that you need some help getting through-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… and this too shall pass. Just accepting that this baby is 100% relying on you is a huge responsibility.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I remember when I purchased two gerbils for my daughter and we’re walking out of the pet store. And these are gerbils. I mean, these are rodents that 100 years ago people would kill if they crawled into their house.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And we’re walking out, and we’re holding this little like wonton box with these two gerbils in it. I remember thinking, this is a lot of responsibility. And I’m telling her-

Ron Reigns:
It is.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I’m telling my daughter, who at the time is 13. I’m like, “Don’t forget to feed these. These are living creatures, 100% dependent on you. And remember the water bottle. And you’re going to have to change the cage.” And I’m thinking, we got to keep these little guys alive. And she’s beaming and she’s jumping up and down next to me, and is so excited about these gerbils. And I’m thinking, wow.

Ron Reigns:
This is an awesome-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. Responsibility.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, all kinds of thinking.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so, I think adding a child into your family is beautiful, but it’s also overwhelming. And I think not to acknowledge the depth and the grandiose amount of feelings and the thoughts that are going through your head would be crazy to not… Especially-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… this has been built up for so long.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely. Not just-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Like a wedding day or a prom. I mean, this is huge.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
This is life changing.

Ron Reigns:
This isn’t just even the adoption journey in a lot of cases, this is since they were a little girl or a little boy they wanted to have a child and be a mother or father.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. This changes your status as a person.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, everything. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
You’re no longer just a friend, a daughter, a sister, now you’re a mother.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And that is a beautiful title that comes with a lot of responsibility.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I often get asked, “What is the difference between bonding and attachment?” How would you describe the difference?

Ron Reigns:
So I see bonding as more of an intimate thing than just attachment. Attachment is just a mother and child or father and child, in my case, where it’s kind of a necessity-based thing. Whereas a bond is more an emotional love, kind of deeper meaning between two people.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. So you heard the term, I like to practice attachment parenting.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Attachment parenting is often spoken about and it’s a parenting philosophy that proposes methods which to aim to promote the attachment of a parent and infant, not only by maximal parental empathy and responsiveness, but also by continuous body closeness and touch. A lot of ways that this is achieved is you see people wearing their babies.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I love those. I love the slings and the baby front carriers.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I would clean the house with my baby in a front back or in a sling.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And so, just keeping your baby close to you is one of the ways that you can just promote attachment and bonding. And I really recommend using some of those techniques.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, looking into this and seeing what works for you.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. Especially if you find yourself struggling a little bit because, again, keeping the baby close to you will help fire up those instincts-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… and fire up that maternal drive. And that’s what needs to happen to help kind of overcome some of those struggles that you might be having.

Ron Reigns:
We have a pregnancy crisis hotline available 24, seven by phone or text at 623-695-4112 or you can call our toll-free number 1-800-340-9665. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get you to a safe place, provide food and clothing, and started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or give you more information. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. Written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. If you enjoy this podcast, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And as always, thanks to Grapes for letting us use their song, I dunno, as our theme song. Join us next time for Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns, and we’ll see you then.