Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself. Because if you didn’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 6:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 7:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 8:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president, and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna K. Evans foundation, and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Birth mothers need support and the ability to grieve after placing a child for adoption.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
This is why adoption after her services are paramount. As a nonprofit Arizona adoption agency, we developed, funded and supported the Donna Kay Evans foundation and many instances a birth mother is parenting other children in the home when she is pregnant and placing that baby for adoption. What is often unresearched, undiscussed, unexamined is the effects of a birth mother placing her baby for adoption on the other children currently in the home.

Ron Reigns:
Right, that makes sense.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And sometimes this can happen and the birth mother can go on and have children later on in life. Sometimes this can happen where at, like I said at the time, there’s no other children in the home, but she goes on to have other children. Does it affect those children? Does her inability to receive adoption aftercare services affect not only her but her children? So without counseling and the support system, a birth mother may not have the ability to continue to parent in a manner she wants to and her grief may or may not affect her daily living.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So aftercare services are designed to be wraparound services, to help her process grief that she may have and provide the support that she may need. Through the Donna Kay Evans Foundation, we as Building Arizona Families have developed this foundation to make sure that we are leaving no stone unturned.

Ron Reigns:
Uh-huh (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That we are crossing all the T’s, dotting all the I’s. Sometimes if a birth mother doesn’t have support and the ability to grieve, she may attempt to fill the loss by jumping into another relationship and getting pregnant again. That isn’t the answer or the solution, especially when she wasn’t able to parent the baby that she just placed for adoption.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think guilt and shame are two of the emotions that are very pronounced for a birth mother after placement of a baby for adoption. Once the baby is born, the decision to place the baby for adoption brings about significant feelings of guilt about concerns regarding is she rejecting the child, is she doing something wrong? Should this be kept a secret? And again, aftercare programs can teach, educate, inform birth mothers and birth parents after the baby is placed for adoption, even though they may have received the same information during the course of their pregnancy and preparation for the adoptive placement, hearing it again, they’re going to hear it with new ears because the event has occurred.

Ron Reigns:
Right. This is-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Preparing-

Ron Reigns:
You’re at a different point in your life.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
And so it sounds different to you.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s like when you’re a senior in high school and you’re getting ready for graduation and you’re told after you graduate, it’s going to feel like this, this, and this. You know I had, when I was a school counselor, I had kids that would tell me, oh, I’m just going to sit back and see what happens. I’m not going to apply to school. I’m just going to, I’m going to see what comes my way.

Ron Reigns:
I know 50 year old’s that are like that, but okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And will I tell, I would tell the 50 year old the same thing I have told the 17 and 18 year old’s, nothing’s going to come your way. You’re going to have to get up and go look for it.

Ron Reigns:
There you go.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s no colleges that are going to come knocking at your door. There’s no employers that are going to come ringing your doorbell.

Ron Reigns:
You know we heard about you through the grapevine. I know you didn’t put in an application, but… Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But your time on social media has been so significant.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That your dedication really speaks for your character.

Ron Reigns:
Yep. So, that’s not likely to happen. I mean it’s not impossible, but not likely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s probably as likely as waiting for the Hogwarts letter when he turned 12 or 13.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So, other birth parents may feel guilt and shame if they decided to keep the adoption a secret. So again, there’s a lot of aspects and entities that can come into play when a birth mother places a baby for adoption and doesn’t have an outlet to express the feelings and emotions she’s experiencing.

Ron Reigns:
Because she’s already hidden everything from everybody from nine months.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
If that’s the path she chose, yes. Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. So you say that the effects of going through the adoption process, effect of the children, the other children in the house, if there are any as well-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It can, sure.

Ron Reigns:
Now, does the Donna Kay Evans Foundation have programs to help counsel them or help them get through some of that?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Absolutely. So, we, we can provide referrals out to community resources. We also have an adoption counselor that will be happy to do a session with the children to help them understand what’s going on. And I think that that’s really valuable because again, education is key and the biggest component. It also can give them an outlet.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In this podcast, we’re going to hear from my biological brother who was born approximately 18 months after I was born. My-

Ron Reigns:
Like you said, that quick-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Turnaround.

Ron Reigns:
…fill the void turnaround, right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. Is exactly what happened. My mother was in 10th grade and had me in January and dropped out shortly after I was born and left the state and met my brother’s father and hooked up with him and had him on her 18th birthday.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So it was a pretty quick turnaround.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. So, let’s hear from him. What we’re talking about in this episode is aftercare services for women who placed a baby for adoption. And it is my belief that mom would have had a very different life had she received services like counseling and everything else rather than nothing and basically keeping it a secret.

Speaker 4:
Yeah. Well see he’s also got to understand, at that time, we was living in the back hills of literally West Virginia. So, the only kind of services that kind of, sort of, maybe was there it was called the mental health clinic. To me that’s like besides going into town to the actual hospital the only other place was it was like a doctor’s place set up in a trailer. If you can picture that, how construction sites had trailers where they had like their desk and stuff that they looked over the blueprints and stuff with this growing up in Chattaroy, West Virginia, this is what we had for medical provision.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Gotcha. Right. And I think that if the attorney that she was working with, if he had provided her some type… If there was no aftercare services back then, if she had received services, if they had been available, I think that she would not have grieved and not had struggled with depression and anxiety. Like she told me that she was struggling from for so long because she never was able to resolve those issues. So can you-

Speaker 4:
She struggled with it because she died.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah.

Speaker 4:
I feel….

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. And I, I agree. Can you talk about when you first found out that I existed, from her and-

Speaker 4:
But see, I didn’t find out from her. I found out when I was probably, I said I was maybe nine, ten years old.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. Just tell the story.

Speaker 4:
I can tell you exactly where I was. My grandma, my dad’s mother, she always liked to run my mom in the ground anyways, just talk about her. And can’t exactly remember the exact words, what brought her up to say this, but I was standing right in front of the doorway of the trailer and she was to the right where the kitchen area was. And she just said, you’re lucky your mom, your momma kept you and didn’t give you up like she did your sister.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Speaker 4:
And I was, it wasn’t like I was an infant at that time I, I knew what she just said. Even though I was a hillbilly child growing up in West Virginia, I still understood. You literally just told me that I had an older sister basically. And I just, well it, it’s hard to explain. Because I was so young, I still remembered an empty void kind of that I just didn’t have no explanation on why I was there, why did I feel like that? I guess something internally can nag at me. When my grandmother said that it was like lights going off, ding dong, ding dong. That was it.

Speaker 4:
I had a sister up there that I didn’t know I had that somehow, we shared a kind of bond without even knowing about it. Because it felt empty and when I found that out it didn’t completely fill it, I didn’t get that emptiness filled until I hugged my sister at the airport and we saw my mother. That’s when it actually… Wow, completeness. So, I knew from a very young age that my sister was out there. I just didn’t know who she was or where she was.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
When your grandmother told you that, did you go back to mom and ask her anything?

Speaker 4:
Yes. I asked mom and mom told me that you, that I already knew how my grandma was, that she was crazy and that that wasn’t true. And I just go, mom was saying that, so I didn’t look at her in a different way. She didn’t want me to look at her like, wow, you really gave up my sister. Kind of, you know what I’m saying? She wanted me to look at her as the super woman she was. Because I tell you my mom, mom would do some stuff man. And I saw some things that children should never see, but I was there for her. Hold your head up off the floor when she just got knocked out. Yeah. My mom was the first person I ever see getting knocked out.

Ron Reigns:
How old were you when your mom finally did admit to you what had happened or talked to you about it?

Speaker 4:
I don’t think I ever had that conversation-

Ron Reigns:
Really.

Speaker 4:
… with her.

Ron Reigns:
So it just happened.

Speaker 4:
Yeah. Yeah, it just boom, Kelly was here.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Now you told me that you used to go to the library and try to find me or something.

Speaker 4:
The hospital records say this person gave birth to a child and stuff and I could never just find anything that, with my mom’s name.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Got you.

Speaker 4:
But I was also, I’ve never been computer or technology friendly either.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah, me neither.

Speaker 4:
The stuff that I looked at was on that clear paper, like plastic and you put it and it makes it bigger. What are those? Micrographs?

Ron Reigns:
Microfiche. Yep, fiche.

Speaker 4:
Yeah, microfiche.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Looking back at the situation as it happened, how do you think, knowing, if you had known about me growing up and you had known that there was an adoption… I mean mom was only 16 when I was born and they did what they felt was best. How do you think it would have affected you if you would have known? Do you think it would have been better having had all of the information all along? Do you think it would have been harder? What do you think, because times were different back then.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Speaker 4:
Yes, they really was. I mean, that’s a good question. I feel that if, I’m kind of glad that it happened the way it did because at least I had some kind of understanding on how I was feeling to where, if nothing would ever been said, my grandma wouldn’t ever said anything I would’ve never known what, why that was. I would always had questions or something that I didn’t even know if I wouldn’t know what the answer was. Does that make sense?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah. So, let’s ask the age-old question. How has adoption impacted your life, positively and negatively?

Speaker 4:
That’s a tough question. That’s the toughest one yet.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I’m sorry.

Speaker 4:
Honestly, because I feel against it because it’s not fully it just in some way because I was robbed a lot of years from you. But on the other hand, it was… I’m kind of glad that you didn’t have to, live the way I did. Yeah. So, because it was rough. When you can remember looking in the cabinets, the refrigerator, seeing nothing but one can of Lima beans and we still hungry. We fight. Mom make us that then didn’t like it but was forced to eat it by my stepdad so we wouldn’t waste food.

Speaker 4:
And I wouldn’t want that for you. I wouldn’t want that for anybody. So, there’s, like you said, there’re positive things about adoption for me and there’s negative things because I felt like I wish I still could have you but not have you go through what I went through. But then again, if mom was never made to give you up for adoption, would we, our paths had been differently. I probably wouldn’t have been here, be here. Michael, might’ve been here, but not me because I was so close after, I mean, I don’t know…

Ron Reigns:
I know this is tough on you and I just want to say I really appreciate you, your honesty and your candor. It’s, it’s obviously not easy, but thank you so much for sharing with us.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
What would you say to kind of close this, what would you say to a woman who is placing her baby for adoption because she’s just in a place that she cannot parent and she does have other children. What advice would you give her? Would you tell her to talk about the child to the other children? Would you say to wait until they’re older? What would you say as somebody who’s been through this?

Speaker 4:
I think they should be honest because secrets always come out and sometimes, they come out at the worst time. So, honesty honestly is the key. Just the honest. Yes, you got a brother or sister out there. I had you guys, I was barely taking care of you guys or whatever the case may be and just let them know that there is someone else out there. I guess had to put them in a better place than what we was. I was already punishing you guys or you single whatever the case, and I just couldn’t see to do that to another child. It’s honesty.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I agree with you. I think that’s perfect advice. All right. Thank you so much.

Speaker 4:
Bye.

Ron Reigns:
One thing that kind of caught my eye or my ear, I guess I should say, as we were talking to your brother, is that not only are aftercare services so vital now in it could have changed your and his life so much to have that available back then. But also, how much more these days open and semi-open adoptions are and there’s so much more prevalent than they were back in the sixties and seventies and eighties and I think that would have changed his life immensely to have been able to talk to you on the phone. I think we’re going in a positive direction in adoption and I think that’s vital.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that is too, and I think from his perspective, adoption is not something that an immature mind could have looked at as positively when he was younger. But because he is mature and he is able to look back at the situation as it was and he is able to see the positives of adoption now it is a dichotomous answer. It is. He is able to see both sides. And I, I’m just so proud of him that he has gotten to that place and can recognize that it is what it is. And, and yes, there are things that could have been done differently. And honesty is key. And yeah, I think that was amazing.

Ron Reigns:
He’s absolutely right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s a quote from Margaret McDonald Lawrence who says, “Neither society nor the adopter who holds a child in her arms wants to confront the agony of the mother from whose arms that same child was taken.” That quote alone is why we as society need to turn towards adoption after care services rather than away and turning a blind eye to the woman that is the trunk of adoption is negligence on every level. And my adoption story is the poster child of why aftercare services are so necessary.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I was placed for adoption in 1973 my mother was 16 years old. She made that selfless decision to choose adoption for me. I was adopted by a wonderful adoptive family and because I was placed for adoption, I was able to go to school. I was able to go to and I was able to get my master’s degree. My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m the director and co-founder of Building Arizona Families and the Donna K. Evans Foundation, which we nicknamed SWAP, supporting women after placement. After I co-founded the agency, I actually looked for my mother and I found her in 2007. My mother struggled with her adoption choice. In her struggle had she had health assistance and counseling, she might’ve had a much better experience and she might have not struggled with depression or anxiety or guilt and so we developed the Donna K. Evans Foundation.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The Donna K. Evans Foundation is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization that helps women after they have placed a child for adoption. We want to give women the services and the support that women like my mother did not receive. Our goal is to let women know that women matter, that they made the right choice when they chose adoption. And what we’ve learned as we’ve done adoptions for over 14 years is birth mothers need help and we want to be the ones to help them. We know about the selfless choice that they made and we support them and we support their choice. When a woman comes into our agency, we are able to give them an emergency food box immediately. A woman can come into our office and receive a food box even if she is not pregnant. Our food pantry is funded through private donations, both financially and through food donations.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We have a clothing closet right here at our facility. We have maternity clothing for the women who are in our adoption program and are looking for clothing the minute they walk through our door. And we have in all sizes, these are all donated clothing. We have clothing that is appropriate for job interviews, that is appropriate for regaining their self-esteem. We do have GED materials onsite for women who are interested in obtaining their GED. We also have computers that you can use for practice testing to help obtain your GED as well. We also have domestic violence services. We can help with restraining orders. We can also help with emergency housing through hotel vouchers. We’re looking for monetary donations so you can help support this fantastic program. It’s going to help hundreds of women after they have placed a child for adoption. We want to give them a hand up, not a handout.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Donations could include anything from clothing to nonperishable food to GED study guides to temporary bus passes. We need you to help us help them. Be part of the solution. Make a difference in all of these women’s lives. The adoption community is a large community and you’re part of it. You are part of the solution. We chose angel wings for our logo because angels were important to my mother. Angel wings are symbolic of being able to fly. The goal of the Donna K. Evans Foundation is to help women find their wings so they can fly. Please contact us through the Donna K. Evans Foundation on our website at the dkefoundation.com

Ron Reigns:
We have a pregnancy crisis hotline available 24/7 by phone or text at (623) 695-4112 or you can call our toll free number +1 800-340-9665. We can make an immediate appointment with you to get you to a safe place, provide food and clothing, and started on creating an Arizona adoption plan or give you more information. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. If you enjoy this podcast, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And as always, thanks to Grapes for letting us use their song, I don’t know, as our theme song. Join us next time for Birth Mother Matters in Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I’m Ron Reigns and we’ll see you then.