Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters and Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me, Ron Reigns, where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Mother 1:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself, because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid, and that’s not fair.

Mother 2:
I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Rachel:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Mother 3:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families Adoption Agency, the Donna K. Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me Campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999 I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I work for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:
Between January 1st, 2011 and July 1st, 2019 States enacted 483 new abortion restrictions. These account for nearly 40% of abortion restrictions enacted by States in the decades since Roe V Wade. Some of the most common state level abortion restrictions are parental notification or consent requirements for minors. Limitations on public funding, mandated counseling designed to dissuade individuals from obtaining an abortion and mandated waiting periods before an abortion.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Louisiana!

Ron Reigns:
Louisiana?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Louisiana could become the first state without abortion access next year.

Ron Reigns:
Wow. That is incredible. Do you think this will happen?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I don’t know. I hope so, but I don’t know. I think that people that are interested in the changes in abortion law and legislation, and I do think that the presidential election will all come into play.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly. Certainly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that if Louisiana does become the first state to have, to not have legalized abortion, I think it will start a trend like the heartbeat law. How States started adopting the heartbeat law.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Do you think that will cause pushback from the other side then? And maybe…

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I do.

Ron Reigns:
… kind of defeat the purpose of it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I don’t think it will defeat the purpose. I think what will happen, my prediction is this, if it goes through, obviously Louisiana will be scrutinized and it is a Southern state.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So that being said, they do have a more, typically conservative approach. I do think that Louisiana would be very brave and bold and courageous in, in deciding to go forward with not having abortion access next year that could potentially eliminate abortion access throughout the United States because it could have a ripple effect.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And that would be a historic monumental event since 1973 when Roe vs. Wade became legal.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Additionally, what I would foresee happening is, there would be obviously a backlash from the pro-choice, pro…

Ron Reigns:
Pro-abortion, you can go ahead and say it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… pro-abortion, pro-abortion thank you, stance. I think that they would use and capitalize on the old statistics on back alley abortions and there would be obviously data provided on their stance from the state of now how many children were coming into protective care and custody of the state because these children that previously would’ve been aborted are now wards of the state because the parents couldn’t financially, emotionally, and physically take care of them.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think that would come into play. However, I do think that it would open society, the United States up to really looking at what life would be like without legalized abortion. I think it would give us an opportunity to have a different stance in a different viewpoint than we have now because we don’t have that now and I know that what our statistics are showing us is that people who are in a state where there’s not readily access to abortion, go to another state and try and have one there. In Louisiana, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of September 1st, 2019; abortion would be banned if Roe V Wade were overturned.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
If it was overturned. A patient must receive state directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage the patient from having an abortion and then wait 24 hours before the procedure is provided. Counseling must be provided in person and must take place before the waiting period begins, thereby necessitating two trips to the facility.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They’re not allowed to use telemedicine to administer abortion medication.

Ron Reigns:
What is telemedicine?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That is when a doctor calls a prescription into the pharmacy. One way that an abortion is performed is by utilizing, it’s a two-pill procedure and so they take one pill and then they take a second pill. So that that carries us over to Oklahoma, where in Oklahoma, an Oklahoma County district judge has halted implementation of a law requiring doctors to tell medical abortion patients, the procedure may be able to be reversed halfway through the process. The state argued before the judge, fetuses, which we call little ones or babies on our podcast can be saved an average of 48% of the time after the first of two pills have taken. If additional medical steps are taken, the first pill is intended to cut off the nutrients to the baby and then some period of time later you take the second pill and there’s this gap with there is a period of time the woman may or may not have successfully destroyed her baby.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Telemedicine would be going back to that. Telemedicine would be the doctor calling into the pharmacy those two pills that are needed to take in order to terminate. Those are normally taken in the first trimester. Early on, and I’m not sure how early, but early on. In Oklahoma there was a law proposed that physicians have to disclose to women coming in to have an abortion through the means of two pills that after the first pill, if they change their mind and want to go ahead and proceed with the pregnancy and have a baby, there’s still an opportunity and a possibility to do so.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There’s a 48% chance that the baby can survive.

Ron Reigns:
So about half the time.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct, with medical intervention if necessary.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Where the backlash came from was the other party did not want that to be mandatory. The law that was presented with saying that doctors would receive a $10,000 fine if they did not disclose that the baby could be saved. Reversed. Yes. It would have also made, the law does not make it a felony, but they could face up to a $10,000 fine. However, the Oklahoma district judge has halted the implementation of this law. Okay. So again, I think that we as a nation on the pro-life side, are looking for ways to save babies and eliminate abortion as much as we can.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In North Dakota, a federal judge blocked a state law, blocked the same state law that required physicians to tell women they may reverse a so-called medication abortion if they have a second thought. North Dakota is one of eight States to pass, or amend laws requiring doctors to tell women undergoing medication abortions that they can still have a live birth after the procedure. The other States with similar laws are Arkansas, Idaho, Kentucky, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Utah. Five of those laws were passed this year. Again, as a society, we’re trying to move forward in the right direction. So, in Florida, Florida passed a bill as well recently, stating that a minor has to receive parental permission before getting an abortion. I cannot believe that this isn’t standard protocol for every state.

Ron Reigns:
Absolutely. And every abortion clinic or whatever, right?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
An abortion is a medical procedure, even if it is a prescription procedure.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think a parent has a right to know. If you have a 13 or 14-year-old, I mean a teenager walking into a clinic and taking medication, the parents should have full knowledge. A child is a minor, and we don’t trust that child to drive a car until they’re 16 had training.

Ron Reigns:
Vote until they’re 18.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. Oh, we’re going to trust them to make a decision regarding another life and their own.

Ron Reigns:
And something that’s going to affect them for the rest of their life, chances are.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Possibly medically, physically, emotionally, spiritually in every aspect.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So I praise Florida for mandating this. Again, I believe in my opinion, that they should, every state should have parental consent before a child…

Ron Reigns:
Goes under any procedure, much less-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Or is prescribed any medication.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In the state of Arizona, and this is not the same across the United States. So I’m just speaking for Arizona.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
A miner needs a parent to sign all medical liability and permission when she’s in a hospital having a baby. However, she has all of the, her own right and can sign on her own behalf for the baby, but not on herself.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Which is very interesting because she, the state is saying that she has the ability to make the decision to place the baby for adoption, which I appreciate.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But at the same time, she doesn’t have the ability to make decisions on her own medical behalf.

Ron Reigns:
And this is the birth mother we’re talking about correct?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. So, for instance-

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, give me an instance.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… A 14 year old can go into a hospital.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Mom has to sign her in, dad has to sign her in, she is in labor, and let’s say there are complications and they need to do an emergency C section or she wants to get an epidural. She has to have parental consent in order to receive that.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Baby’s born, baby is all of the medical decisions and the ability to place the baby for adoption does not have to be signed off on by her parent.

Ron Reigns:
Her mother and father or guardians or whoever.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. So she can do an adoption with no consent whatsoever from her parents.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
But she can’t-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
and sign medically on the baby’s behalf.

Ron Reigns:
And I, kind of agree with, well, should we have parent, parental?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s a hard one. I don’t know. I, I’ve often thought about this and I don’t know my stance on that.

Ron Reigns:
Right. I mean cause you think about a perfect family or whatever that they’ve always been supportive and stuff. But there’s also families who are less than perfect and this could have repercussions on the birth mother.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
You know, this decision she’s making. That is, that’s interesting.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Its profound.

Ron Reigns:
Something to definitely think about.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It’s profound. It’s something that, you know, I have, I have girls that are teenagers and one of them is 17 and one of them is 15 I don’t believe that it’s 17 and 15 at least in my experience. And when my older daughter was a teenager that they would have the maturity level and they’re great kids. They’re amazing.

Ron Reigns:
Right, of course.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
They’re right on par, to make those types of choices. But at the same time, I do want to encourage them…

Ron Reigns:
To come to you.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right, and to be able to be a part of the decision. And that’s where family values come into play and are really strong and need to be really implemented from a very young age.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Pennsylvania maybe on its way to joining a handful of States where abortion is banned after a fetal heartbeat is detected, which again, I’m a huge proponent of the heartbeat law-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… because that to me makes sense.

Ron Reigns:
And we’ve gone through these statistics before, but about what time or how long into the pregnancy does that fetal heartbeat generally show.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Five to six weeks.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. Five to six weeks. So very early.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Very, very early. Yes. And again, getting this information out to our listeners is really important because there is an election coming up.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And abortion is always a really hot topic.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Going back to Louisiana, I found this really interesting. Abortions in Louisiana only represent 1.2% of all abortions in the United States.

Ron Reigns:
Really? That small amount?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes. However, however, in 2017 that small amount was still 9,920 abortions. That’s a lot of babies.

Ron Reigns:
Unbelievable.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
That’s a lot of babies.

Ron Reigns:
And you would think that would be about half the national average, right? Because if it’s 1% that’s one in a hundred there’s 50 States. Does that make sense?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Okay. So, if generally States are about 2%, they are about half. Okay, sorry, I’m trying to work around.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
No, absolutely. So, there are seven, now eight States, that have no gestational limits on abortion. So, what that means is that you can have an abortion at any time during your pregnancy.

Ron Reigns:
Including up to-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
The time of birth.

Ron Reigns:
… the time of birth. Shocking.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So that would include Alaska, Colorado, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Vermont and Washington DC. Despite abortion up to the time of birth being legal in several States and the nation’s Capitol, there were only five clinics nationwide that perform late term abortions. So not all of these States actually perform them.

Ron Reigns:
They don’t actually have access to it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
But it is legal.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Two are in States that allow abortion up to birth and three are in States that prohibit late term abortion, but allow exemptions. Among the States that have no abortion limits, so far, only Colorado and New Mexico have clinics that will perform abortions up to 32 weeks and later on a case by case basis. At least one clinic in Washington D C offers abortions up to 36 weeks. A baby’s viable at 24 weeks with medical intervention.

Ron Reigns:
Right. It can survive outside the womb.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
With medical intervention.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There are some cases now where I think they’ve had success at 23 weeks in F and five days, and so the number is lower-

Ron Reigns:
Keeps getting lower.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right? A baby that’s born at 36 weeks may not need any medical assistance.

Ron Reigns:
Right. It’s just a premature baby.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct. And I’m not sure how in 2019 we can look at a law like this and be okay with it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I’m not sure how, as a society we can sit back and say nothing and do nothing and…

Ron Reigns:
Allow it to continue.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right. And so obviously you have people with very strong opinions on both sides.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And you have people who have their beliefs founded and in religion or in some other basis as to why they believe what they believe. Sometimes it’s experience, sometimes it’s education. Again, sometimes it’s religion, sometimes it is just…

Ron Reigns:
Knowing that it’s not right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Yeah, your morals. You know your parents always say the one thing I want to teach you is right versus wrong. And again, I’m not judging anybody. I’m not saying what’s right and what’s wrong. I’m saying that as a mom that has had children and as somebody that works with women who are pregnant and who’ve had abortions and are now choosing adoption, that adoption is such a beautiful thing.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
As an agency, we placed 69 babies last year-

Ron Reigns:
That’s awesome.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… and I have never been so proud. That being said, in Louisiana alone in 2017 9,920 abortions were provided to women.

Ron Reigns:
10,000 babies essentially.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Right.

Ron Reigns:
Just gone.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And I’m celebrating the adoption of 69 and that’s, that’s a hard pill to swallow. That’s a hard pill to swallow when you look at the scope, and that represents 1.2%. So, what do we as a society need to do, say, show, exemplify for people to understand what has to happen?

Ron Reigns:
The impact of this quote unquote choice.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Will back alley abortions resurface? Yes, probably.

Ron Reigns:
Possibly.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
There will probably be some.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Will there’ll be 9,920 of them in Louisiana alone? I don’t think so.

Ron Reigns:
I doubt it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I don’t think so. I think the chances, the odds are very low of that. I, like I said this, this data that we gathered and that we’re looking at and scrutinizing and trying to understand and make sense of is really hard to grasp.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We’re not talking in a clinical term about fetuses. We’re talking about babies and people and human beings. When you turn on the TV and you watch the, the commercial that comes on about saving all the animals and Sarah McLaughlin song comes on-

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… What is the name of that?

Ron Reigns:
I don’t. Is it the ASPCA?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I think it is, yes.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I always change the channel because I can’t bear-

Ron Reigns:
It’s heartbreaking.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… to look at it because it makes me feel so guilty.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
It makes me want to open up my wallet and just start throwing money at the TV and write checks and write and write checks and

Ron Reigns:
So is that what we need is a powerful commercial with Sarah McLaughlin song going to open people’s eyes to what’s going on with abortions?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Maybe. Maybe we do. I know that when people who have tried to make a difference and stood up with posters and pictures that were labeled gruesome and horrific and how dare they have that picture up in a public place of an abortion or a baby being aborted, that’s what’s happening. When we watched the Sarah McLaughlin commercial for a ASPCA and we feel this moving feeling-

Ron Reigns:
However, nobody’s protesting that and saying, that is not right for them to put those images on our tv’s where our children watch.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
No, everybody has the same reaction. It’s heartbreaking. You tear up and you never want to hear that song again.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Correct, because it reminds you of how sad it is.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
In that stance, in that frame of mind, those are animals.

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We’re talking about babies and people.

Ron Reigns:
Yeah, human beings, with potential and a life that could be ahead of them.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Why can’t we have that same visceral reaction that we have to animals when we’re talking about babies?

Ron Reigns:
I don’t know. Because for the past 50 years, the propaganda, can I say that?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
Sure.

Ron Reigns:
Has all been so one sided and kind of paints everybody else as closed minded and wanting to take choices away from women and their bodies and it’s only about them-

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
But are we taking choices away from women or are we taking choices away from babies?

Ron Reigns:
We are absolutely taking choices away from the baby. They don’t even have the chance to achieve any potential because we’re stopping it.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
We’re not giving them a voice.

Ron Reigns:
Right.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
So imagine if the same effort, intensity, feelings, emotions surrounding that ASPCA commercial-

Ron Reigns:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
… was given to newborns, just a little sooner.

Ron Reigns:
It would be nice, wouldn’t it?

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
I wonder what difference it would make.

Ron Reigns:
Well, we need to do something to change America’s mind on this subject. We really do.

Kelly Rourke-Scarry:
And that’s one of the goals of the podcast.

Rachel:
My name is Rachel and I’m six and a half months pregnant and kind of the reason I chose adoption is I’ve had six abortions in the past. I was planning on having an abortion with this child and a friend of mine, she was like, “you know what? I know this agency called Building Arizona Families. Why don’t you go through them, don’t have an abortion, give this child a chance and maybe this’ll be an opportunity for you to change your life, get off the street and turn your life around and help somebody else in the process.” So I decided to do that and I have two other children. I have a 19-year-old son that I was going to have an abortion with. I told my mom when I was seven months pregnant with him, I went to the abortion clinic and they told me I was too far along.

Rachel:
My other child, my rights were severed four and a half years ago. So, I don’t have him either. When I came to Building Arizona Families, it just seemed like a really great place and everybody’s really nice and, and you know, people have asked me, “why don’t you keep this baby? Why are you giving this baby up? It’s your child. How could you do that?” And I just, I’m not ready. You know, and it wouldn’t be fair. It’s selfish of me to keep a baby that I can’t take care of. I’m very happy with my decision and I don’t listen to what people say about me being selfish or you know, “Oh that’s not right. That’s your child. How can you give away your child?” Why would you not want to give your child an opportunity to have a better life?

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters and Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by me, Ron Reigns. We also want to thank Building Arizona Families, the Donna Kay Evans foundation and the You Before Me campaign. A special thanks goes out to grapes for letting us use their song Item No as our theme song, you can check out our blogs on our website at AZpregnancyhelp.com and you can call us 24 hours a day with questions or comments about the podcast or adoption in general at (623) 695-4112 that’s (623) 695-4112. Make sure to join us next time on Birth Mother Matters and Adoption for Kelly Rourke-Scarry., I’m Ron Reigns, we’ll see you then.