Ron Reigns:
Today, we have a very special episode of Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. In part two of this two part series, Kelly will be sharing her reunification story between her and her birth mother and we’ll continue talking to one of her best friends, Kim Brains about their trip to meet Kelly’s mom, Donna Kay Evans.

Ron Reigns:
Welcome and thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption with Kelly Rourke-Scarry and me Ron Reigns where we delve into the issues of adoption from every angle of the adoption triad.

Speaker 2:
Do what’s best for your kid and for yourself because if you can’t take care of yourself, you’re definitely not going to be able to take care of that kid and that’s not fair.

Speaker 3:
And I know that my daughter would be well taken care of with them.

Speaker 4:
Don’t have an abortion. Give this child a chance.

Speaker 5:
All I could think about was needing to save my son.

Kelly R.:
My name is Kelly Rourke-Scarry. I am the executive director, president and co-founder of Building Arizona Families adoption agency, the Donna Kay Evans Foundation and creator of the You Before Me campaign. I have a bachelor’s degree in family studies and human development and a Master’s degree in education with an emphasis in school counseling. I was adopted at the age of three days, born to a teen birth mother, raised in a closed adoption and reunited with my birth mother in 2007. I have worked in the adoption field for over 15 years.

Ron Reigns:
And I’m Ron Reigns. I’ve worked in radio since 1999. I was the cohost of two successful morning shows in Prescott, Arizona. Now I worked for my wife who’s an adoption attorney and I’m able to combine these two great passions and share them on this podcast.

Ron Reigns:
You had talked about before how you just absolutely knew that your mother was a queen.

Kelly R.:
Royalty.

Ron Reigns:
And you were a princess and so you’re now what? The princess of West Virginia?

Kelly R.:
It was as Kim is describing, very much a culture shock. It was.

Ron Reigns:
And especially compared to what you believed to this point.

Kelly R.:
Having an adoptive mother that trains you from day one how to eat at the White House and reminds you of this every meal.

Ron Reigns:
In case that’s going to come up.

Kelly R.:
Correct.

Ron Reigns:
Okay.

Kelly R.:
And my children even talk about it. That’s, she’s known for it. Emily Post, you write thank you notes.

Ron Reigns:
That’s cool.

Kelly R.:
And going from being raised in that culture and thinking that, are just unfound royalty in my head. What am I going to inherit? Which castle is mine? That’s the thoughts of an adopted child.

Ron Reigns:
That is awesome.

Kelly R.:
And finding out that that was.

Ron Reigns:
The reality.

Kelly R.:
As far from it as you could.

Ron Reigns:
Polar opposites.

Kelly R.:
Right. That’s jumping off the Empire State Building, thinking that there is this magic trampoline.

Ron Reigns:
Going to bounce you right back to the top.

Kelly R.:
It’s like just jumping off the curb. It was very different. It was in some ways very comfortable, it felt right. But at the same time, I had no idea how to, everything was different. Her level of affection was different than my adoptive mother’s level of affection. And her, the words that she would use were very different. The way that she would speak to me was very different. And it was nothing that I was used to. And so, I didn’t know like Kim, how to process it and at first it was a lot to take in and it was very confusing. Kim, why don’t you describe Donna, my mom, and as you saw her and as our listeners would see her.

Kim Brains:
Oh wow. She exuded life. She, like I said, was genuine, transparent. She didn’t care about what people thought of her that way. She just was very much a real person, a warm person, loud, funny. A person that you could easily strike up a conversation with in the line at a grocery store and just feel like you’ve known her for a 1,000 years. That would be to me, the authentic nature of Donna. Really what the kids today would call extra. She was extra, she was just extra extra, Big hair, big eyeliner, loud voice, funny. She was not, I would not say that she was emotionally reserved from what I recall my knowing her, and I remember what you were saying, yes, she could talk different, she acted different. Her level of affection was different.

Kim Brains:
I remember being at the house and you just looked in shock. It wasn’t, they just, they brought you in and they’re like, oh by the way, here’s everyone by the way. It was like going from nothing to an entire household. It was a whole party. People were in every room. I think she took you aside and took you into her room and she gave you a necklace and I don’t remember what the necklace had on it, but I remember you were in shock over that because I think she was very emotional at that point. And had she called you her daughter and she said some very nice words to you, but it was a lot for you to handle right there and then because you weren’t used to that kind of outward sort of a person who was just saying everything they felt.

Kim Brains:
She didn’t hold back and I think you were just like, what? She was not holding back with you. It was like she didn’t skip a beat. You were always her daughter. It never, the time didn’t matter. The space didn’t matter. When she saw you, it was as if it was always there all the time for her. And it was hard for, it was I think more of a challenge for you I should say, because I remember when you came out of the bedroom you just looked like, oh my gosh. That was a lot and I don’t think you were overly comfortable at that point with her, I’m trying to find the word, the demonstration of her emotions, so to speak and her feelings, her way of telling you those things. So upfront without anything to hide.

Kelly R.:
Right.

Kim Brains:
It’s just who she was.

Kelly R.:
I think a lot of that too was I was trying to at the same time process the guilt over waiting for so long to find her and feeling almost guilty towards my adoptive mom because I didn’t want to take away from that relationship. And yet it was really complex. It was really overwhelming and confusing and I didn’t know, I couldn’t process it at that point.

Ron Reigns:
And I think a lot of that would be alleviated from having an open adoption or a semi open adoption.

Kelly R.:
That would have…

Ron Reigns:
Because then you know this person.

Kelly R.:
And then you’re not grieving over any lost fantasies of castles and royalty and you are able to know who you are and where you’re from. And that gives you an insight and a different perspective than a very closed adoption like mine was. Kim, what was your favorite, it can be funny, story about that trip?

Kim Brains:
Oh Kelly. There was so many. I think I’ve already said it just from the, my favorite thing that I remember is just when I realized that that was your mom. When she yelled out for the soda, that just, it answered so many questions. We often ask nurture versus nature and we try to put these things together in our head, but that was it. There were so many other funny stories. Your relatives are hilarious. I remember going with your brother and I was searching for something in all of their faces that reminded me of you. Do they have the same eyes? Always looking, looking, looking.

Kim Brains:
But I remember sitting at some little pub or something with your brother and listening to him talk. We were in a different culture altogether. Just listening to him talk. I remember you looked at me like, he was just saying some things and telling a story, but just the way he was saying it. You looked at me and I almost, you kicked me or the table, don’t say anything. It was we were in a different land and I just laughed and closed my eyes just because I thought, wow.

Kelly R.:
How did we get here to this place?

Kim Brains:
How did he get, yeah. I think that we were also searching in our hearts, is this really your family? But then also I was looking physically. I remember your brother had your eyes and or at least something in your eyes. Maybe the color, whatever. Because you have pretty astounding, pretty eyes. But just but listening to your brother talk, I’m like, this cannot be, your brother. This, you two are two whole different things. And the way he was just talking and the stories he was telling and the words he was using. It was funny. Kelly, there’s a lot of stories in there.

Kelly R.:
Yes there is. Do you have any questions for her?

Ron Reigns:
No, I’m just, I’m fascinated by the whole process because it’s all foreign to me so this is neat.

Kelly R.:
Yeah, I would say that it was an interesting dynamic in that my mom really wanted, like Kim said, to not skip a beat in terms of all the years that we had lost. And that’s a really strong point because that was true. And so, she kept kind of, she had found her peace in that I was her daughter and I was not with her for the 36 years. She didn’t find peace in the loss, but the puzzle piece fit for her right away. And so, she didn’t want to lose any more time. She wanted to know anything and everything. I remember at one point she wanted to look at my hands and see if they looked like hers. She wanted to look at my toes and was making comments about them. And it was that discovery feeling for her. And you’re laughing, Kim, because you remember this I’m assuming?

Kim Brains:
It’s bringing back memories. Well, awkward too. I can imagine you and I have both grown many, many years together, but I’m thinking back to where we were back then and can imagine if somebody wanted to look at your toes, you have been like, what the? No. It’s not okay. But if you think about it, she was doing what you would do if you had a newborn. I want to count all the fingers, I going to look at all the toes. I want to see.

Ron Reigns:
What reminds me of me and yeah. Things like that.

Kelly R.:
Where am I?

Ron Reigns:
Now with the relationship with your mom, was that instantly a mother daughter relationship? Or was it more, okay, we’re adults now.

Kelly R.:
In her eyes, yes. In her eyes it was 100% yes. She wanted me to call her mom from the get-go.

Ron Reigns:
Did she try and give you advice? Did she scold you?

Kelly R.:
Oh, she gives everybody advice. She gives the guy advice. Yes. In the line behind you. She gives everybody.

Ron Reigns:
That shirt doesn’t go with those pants.

Kelly R.:
No, she gives everybody advice. Did she scold me? Yeah, yeah, she spoke her mind.

Ron Reigns:
Whatever it was.

Kelly R.:
Whatever it was. And there was, I remember we went to dinner the first night. It was, I think it was at a Chili’s or Applebee’s or something like that and we were standing in front of the restaurant and there was the big no smoking sign and she decided that’s where she was going to smoke so she stood in front of the big no smoking sign and was smoking because that’s what people do. They stand in front of the no smoking sign and smoke.

Ron Reigns:
I’m not going to say I haven’t done it.

Kelly R.:
Okay, well confession time. And I remember a family walking up and looking at her like, don’t you see the sign behind you? And her kind of putting both of her hands up and saying, “What?” And because that was what she did.

Ron Reigns:
Just her.

Kelly R.:
Yeah. It was, as Kim said, it was very draining. Now I did look at her as a mother, but at the same time I couldn’t compartmentalize it. I couldn’t. I knew that she was. And I loved her, but it wasn’t that instantaneous Mommy, I’m home. It wasn’t like that. It wasn’t, it was really shock, real true, raw shock.

Ron Reigns:
Wow.

Kelly R.:
It was, yeah. There were almost no words and she wanted me to meet everybody. I think there was a grocery clerk that we had to go into the grocery store because she wanted me to meet the grocery clerk and there was a time she wanted me to meet all of her dead relatives. Kim, you didn’t get to go on this, but you heard about this. I think you were at the hotel. What had happened was her mother and two sisters were at the graveyard and we get in the rental car, my brother goes, it’s her and my brother, and it’s raining because it’s Ohio. And it was I think March. And so, we drive to the graveyard and in these graveyards, you drive pretty much up to where the graves are. We’re kind of in the middle of the graveyard in our car.

Kelly R.:
And so she gets out of the car and she’s showing me the graves and she’s talking to them and I’m just kind of wide eyed staring at her and staring at the situation, thinking again, I’m having an out of body experience. And I am watching her and she’s lifting angels off of people’s grave sites saying that they stole her mother’s angel. She’s rearranging everybody’s angels on their gravestones. And I’m just, I’m watching and I must’ve been wearing sandals or something because it was raining and my feet were sinking into the grass in the mud. I’m standing there and I remember thinking, it’s six feet below. Six feet, I’m not going to hit the top of the coffin because I’m beginning to get really nervous. She’s not crying at the grave site. She’s running around telling her stories, rearranging. Everybody around her is convinced that no, no, that’s the angel.

Ron Reigns:
The angels, right. Yeah.

Kelly R.:
And I’m kind of laughing, not really knowing how to react. And my brother’s very solemn and he’s walking around and so she decides she’s had enough. She goes and she sits in the car, the rental car, and the windows were rolled up because it’s raining, and he’s having a moment and is tearing up and talking about his aunt and all of a sudden we hear this banging. And I mean banging, pounding on the window and he’s crying and I’m still kind of frozen and I’m turning around and she’s banging so hard on the window. She was done, it was time to go and we needed to get in the car.

Ron Reigns:
I don’t care if you guys are done or not. Get in here, we’re gone.

Kelly R.:
And so she wanted to go. It was done. And so, and there’s no telling her no. At that point, she was going to bang on the window until we came to the car. Yeah. That was another moment that I…

Ron Reigns:
Will never forget.

Kelly R.:
I won’t because my shoes were now full of mud, I’m sloshing as we’re going.

Ron Reigns:
My thought would be, I’m sinking into this mud where these graves are and mom’s over here moving people’s angels and stuff. I would be thinking Carrie the movie where the hand reaches up and grabs.

Kelly R.:
At that point Ron, anything, nothing would have surprised me. Honestly, I was so out of my element.

Ron Reigns:
I woke up with my head sewn to the carpet.

Kelly R.:
Uncomfortable, not knowing should I be crying because here’s my biological dead grandmother.

Ron Reigns:
Because they are from my family.

Kelly R.:
My two dead biological aunts. I think there was an uncle or at some point. Was I supposed to cry? Was I supposed to talk to them? What do I say? Hi?

Ron Reigns:
Never met you.

Kelly R.:
What do you, no, I never met you. And there wasn’t a book that prepared me for it and I didn’t want their response. I didn’t want them to think I was not sympathetic or not involved.

Ron Reigns:
And your support staff is back at the hotel or whatever.

Kelly R.:
Right, Kim wasn’t allowed to come to the graveyard. I think my mom had said that this was a family thing and she kicked Kim out. You were either at the hotel.

Kim Brains:
That was fine. That was fine with me. I think that was the point where I was like, okay, I’m going to take a breath because this was so overwhelming for me. I couldn’t imagine how it felt for you. It was just overwhelming. I think I remember I walked around a little bit. But you told me this story is so much detail I really felt like I was there. I wasn’t there? I wasn’t, I don’t remember that. But Kelly, when you’re telling that story, it’s like, that reminds me of way back when we were first together, you and I were in Walgreens and we’re walking out, we’re going to go see a movie or something together and we’re grabbing something beforehand and you’re just all over the store. Boo, boo, boo, boo, boo. Moving all over, moving so fast, and you’re like, yeah, I’m done. let’s go. I was like, okay.

Kim Brains:
I wasn’t used to that abruptness. That was before you met your mom, but that was, those are the little things that I know about you and that now I know about your mom that that’s like, it’s so weird because that connects you. Oh yeah, that’s you, that’s daughter, that’s your mom. That’s how you guys are internally because you can be pretty fast and when you’re done, you’re done. We’re going to move onto the next thing. Move onto the next thing.

Ron Reigns:
Apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree.

Kelly R.:
Right? Yeah. That would be nature.

Ron Reigns:
Exactly.

Kim Brains:
Yeah. That was pretty wild.

Kelly R.:
Yeah. Do you have any other questions?

Kim Brains:
It was the whole family.

Ron Reigns:
No, I don’t think so.

Kim Brains:
Was a mix, a deck of cards that I remember going back to the hotel and us talking and just kind of decompress and talk about what happened and work through it, but it was the whole entire family, I think both of us were having weird dreams at night. Remember that?

Kelly R.:
I do.

Kim Brains:
Both of us were just oh my gosh. What is this. It was like we walked onto to the movie set of the crazy movie with all the antics and the personalities.

Kelly R.:
It was just so different than anything we’d ever experienced. And I remember one morning, I think it was maybe the third morning we were there and we heard somebody yelling and both of us jumped out of bed and stood up because we thought my mom had come to the hotel and was yelling outside.

Kim Brains:
Like hey guys, come on, let’s go.

Kelly R.:
Yeah. And so, we literally were sound asleep with the time change and jumped up, standing at attention. We were right, we were ready.

Ron Reigns:
For anything.

Kelly R.:
And I remember looking at Kim going, “Did you give her the hotel room number?” Yeah, that was really an experience. That was, it was one of those moments I will never forget, and I never want to. It was, yeah. And leaving was incredibly hard. I really wasn’t ready to leave when we left. And that was tough. That was really tough. She, my mom had an exceedingly hard time when I left.

Ron Reigns:
Did she?

Kelly R.:
Yeah, that was really tough. Well Kim, thank you for joining us.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you Kim.

Kim Brains:
Thank you. Anytime. You guys have a good rest of your day.

Kelly R.:
Okay, thanks Kim. Bye.

Kim Brains:
Fun reliving. Bye.

Ron Reigns:
I think it also highlights how it’s kind of important to have a semi-open or open adoption.

Kelly R.:
Yeah, I do too. I think it’s crucial.

Ron Reigns:
Obviously there’s cases when, but I think it’s amazing what, the different things that you lose on all those 36 years.

Kelly R.:
You can’t get them back and as much as you wish you could, you can’t. And you can’t change it.

Ron Reigns:
And there’s nothing you can do. No effort you can put in to make it up.

Kelly R.:
No, and when you see the relationship that you can have with a biological parent and you don’t look for your biological mother until you’re 34, it’s like if you could rewind time and get those years back, you would. If you’d known then what you know now. Then you could do that.

Ron Reigns:
We all say that, but yeah, absolutely.

Kelly R.:
But there was a good example. Also, I wonder, if I had looked at 22 would she and I have both been in the same place that we would have been able to make the connection that we made?

Ron Reigns:
Right. It might not have.

Kelly R.:
Been the amazing relationship that it was. There was some research done and it wasn’t a hugely popular study, but it was done by Ruth Moran. Did some research on reunification. I think she may have reunified herself. I found her research really interesting because it was very relatable and I think that she nailed it. She developed stages of adoption and in those stages, which she defines as paralysis, eruption, loss and grief, and then empowerment. She says that the three factors that impact these stages are how successful the reunion is, the timing of the reunion and the fact that most reunifications in adoption are females seeking their birth mothers.

Ron Reigns:
Really? The men don’t do this as much.

Kelly R.:
Not as much.

Ron Reigns:
As they grow up.

Kelly R.:
For example, my adopted brother who I grew up with, has not searched for his biological mother.

Ron Reigns:
He just figures he has what he needs.

Kelly R.:
Well, see that was, that’s a really good response because that’s, I had what I needed too. That wasn’t my reason for searching. I think, well the research says that women who mother, experience the bonding of a mother and a child, and this can serve as a catalyst. That’s one.

Ron Reigns:
Theory.

Kelly R.:
Theory. Also, that women give more grace on displaying their emotions though and it’s a really emotional process. I can say that it has nothing to do with fulfillment in, for me anyway, in the adoptive family that I had.

Ron Reigns:
Right. No, no, no, certainly not to take away from that.

Kelly R.:
But at the same time it was definitely curiosity and I wanted medical history. The first stage that she talks about paralysis, would be the overwhelming amount of information you receive and how you kind of withdraw and need your emotional space. This actually happened to me the entire first visit, which was about four days. The entire first visit, it was absolutely a state of paralysis. I was in shock. I didn’t know how to respond. I didn’t want to come across offensive. I didn’t want them to think that I was some uppity girl that just descended on them. It was indescribable and incomparable to anything I’ve ever experienced. Even becoming a mother the first time. This was more impactful emotionally because you don’t know. It’s the unknown, complete unknown and there’s not enough out there for people to understand what that feeling really feels like. I think paralysis is a very good terminology and a very good explanation of what’s happening.

Kelly R.:
The second stage eruption, it’s when emotions wash all over you. They do hit at times. They would hit me at night when I was away. And that’s when Kim and I would talk and process everything because we did stay in a hotel. It was like stepping out of this new world and looking in on it and it was the eruption stage for me, I don’t think stopped for the first year. It would come, I know that after we left and I went home, I remember thinking, where do I belong? Do I belong in Arizona or do I belong in Ohio? And I remember even pulling up houses for sale in Ohio, thinking maybe I need to start building Ohio families. Because at that point I didn’t know where I was.

Kelly R.:
And I remember thinking, I found a connection that I’ve never had before. And I actually asked my, one of my biological brothers, Clarence, to come out and visit me. And I actually, he agreed to it. I think I flew him out within two weeks of returning home because I couldn’t separate. It was like going into a dream that you could never imagine, waking up, but knowing you have the ability to go back into that dream.

Ron Reigns:
You’re trying to get back in. Right.

Kelly R.:
And so I flew him out and that brought so much peace when he was there.

Ron Reigns:
Because it was a piece of that dream, bringing him here.

Kelly R.:
Right. All of the sadness and despair and depression I had felt when I left, was gone when he was there. And then when he left, it resumed. Then my mother came out and again lifted immediately. And then I went through it again. And that is where her third stage, the loss and grief came into play.

Kelly R.:
There was a paradigm shift from thinking you’re royalty and inheriting castles to a very different world. It wasn’t ever a disappointment for me. It was a complete change of mind. And so, and I remember my mother asking me like, “Are you disappointed? Is this what you want?” And I wasn’t. It wasn’t. It was like if you were totally blind, totally blind and you’ve never seen anything and you open your eyes, but when you’re blind you’re thinking, this is what it’s going to be like.

Ron Reigns:
Right. Okay, that makes sense.

Kelly R.:
And then.

Ron Reigns:
It’s nothing like that.

Kelly R.:
It’s nothing. Indescribable. And then closing your eyes again so you’re blind in a sense and just wanting to see yet again, even if it’s only opening up just a little bit. And that’s what those visits were for me. They were another glimpse into the world.

Ron Reigns:
Just a peephole view.

Kelly R.:
Yes.

Ron Reigns:
Certainly. Okay.

Kelly R.:
And so there were lots of moments of loss and grief. I think it did take me at least a full year before I was able to really let everything sink in and really understand the process.

Ron Reigns:
Kind of wrap your head around everything.

Kelly R.:
And stop questioning everything about who I was and what I believed in and where my roots really lied and how do I view this person? And how do they view me? And what regrets do I have? And what regrets do they have? And how should an adult adoptee really establish a connection and maintain one? And then her fourth stage, empowerment. And that’s when you move beyond acceptance into growth of a new self-knowledge and self-awareness. I think that phase never really stops because you spend the primary, your childhood without the knowledge in a closed adoption and without understanding fully who you are and where you come from and where your roots lie, that you will always crave to know more. And I think people who aren’t adopted feel the same way because that’s why, ancestry.com and 23 and Me and those sites are so addictive and so enticing for so many people because they offer knowledge into a world you don’t know about and that’s what adoption reunification is.

Ron Reigns:
Thank you for joining us on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption, written and produced by Kelly Rourke-Scarry and edited by Ron Reigns. We also want to thank building Arizona Families, the Donna Kay Evans Foundation and the You Before Me campaign. A special thanks goes out to Grapes for letting us use their song I Dunno as our theme song and we want to thank Kim Brains for joining us today on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. You can check out our blogs on our website at azpregnancyhelp.com. Join us next time on Birth Mother Matters in Adoption. For Kelly Rourke-Scarry, I’m Ron Reigns. We’ll see you then.